Kevin Anthony 0:05
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, the place to be for honest and real talk about relationships and sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony, and I am here to help you have the relationship of your dreams and the best sex of your life.

Kevin Anthony 0:26
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 422, and it is titled “The Psychology and Science of Desire. So we’re going to be talking about, obviously, desire today. We’re going to be talking about what desire is, where it comes from, and how it is different from, say, fantasies or fetishes, things like that. We’re just going to kind of do a deep dive into it. You know, when it comes to desire, a lot of times people just think, well, you just either have it or you don’t have it, right? And it’s just something that happens or doesn’t happen, and there’s so much more to desire and how it happens and why it’s different. Say maybe in men versus women, or, you know, what types of things create that desire. It’s a much more nuanced conversation than I think most people give it credit for. You know, they just kind of go. Well, I have desire. I don’t have desire. Especially as people get older, they just go. Well, that’s what happens when you get older. You just don’t have desire anymore, right? And that’s really just not true. So we’re going to talk about all of those things today.

Kevin Anthony 1:33
But before we do, a short word from my sponsor: Are you ready to build deeper intimacy and a more passionate relationship? Introducing Intimacy Mastery, the sex, love, and intimacy app for singles and couples. Your personal guide to mastering love, sex, and connection. Get a personalized plan tailored to your unique relationship goals. Enjoy daily lessons, real-world challenges, and guided reflections. All designed by me, Kevin Anthony, your trusted guide and coach, track your growth, celebrate your wins, and get expert feedback every step of the way. Access exclusive resources, videos, and proven tools right at your fingertips. Whether you’re single or partnered, this app will help you create the love life you truly desire. The app is available right now at kevinantonycoaching.com/go/app. That’s kevinantonycoaching.com/go/app.

Kevin Anthony 2:28
Okay, my guest today is Nikki Davis Fain Bloom. She is a sex educator, writer, and relationship coach. Her work sits somewhere between science, education, and play. She has led more than 500 workshops for audiences including Planned Parenthood, NYU, and the United Nations, bringing research and practical tools to life through humor, conversation, and fun and ridiculous activities. Nikki holds a master’s degree in psychology from NYU and has studied sexuality at the Kinsey Institute. Her writing has appeared in Cosmopolitan, Refinery, 29, and Insider. Welcome to the show, Nikki.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 3:04
Thanks so much for having me.

Kevin Anthony 3:06
All right, we’re diving in. We’re going to start with desires. So, what exactly is a desire? Can we just start by laying some groundwork? Like, like what? How would you define what a desire is?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 3:23
When I think of desire, I think of it as something that you want. It’s something within your body that you’re responding to, you’re excited by, and I see that as different from something like fantasy, for example, where a fantasy is a concept that you find interesting, but it’s something that you might not ever want to actually experience in real life. I work with a few people who have fantasies that might be sort of uncommon, so they’re turned on by a concept. I work with a lot of people who have fetishes, and in my work, yeah, a lot of it is a concept that they find exciting, but it’s not necessarily a desire to have an experience in the real form. Does that make sense?

Kevin Anthony 4:12
Yeah, and we’ll explore that a little bit deeper, of course. If we want, like, technical definitions, and this is the thing, right? Like, you’ve got the scientific definition of, like, what is a desire, right? And then there’s like, how does that really manifest in the real world? So, you know, the technical definition is, you know, the sum of forces that lean us toward or away from sexual behavior, right? Like, what makes us want to have sex, or what makes us not want to have sex? But I think that definition is overly simplistic and leaves a lot out, which is, of course, what we’re going to be exploring here. So you mentioned fantasies and also fetish. We’ll get to those in a little bit because I do want to talk about what the difference is between those. But before we do that, I want to stay on desires a little bit.

Kevin Anthony 5:10
So I mentioned in the intro, like a lot of times people think, well, with desires, you just either have it or you don’t have it, and people think that well, whatever the desire is, it’s just naturally part of who you are. And one of the things you and I talked about in the pre-interview call was where desires come from. And there are multiple different places where we get these desires from. So talk a little bit about some of them, and you know, if you’re missing any, I’ll fill them in. But like, where do these desires come from?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 5:46
Yeah. So I have a book coming out, and in it, I interviewed a lot of people about what their desires are, what excites them in the world, and sort of when they first realized this, and what experiences sort of led them to have a specific erotic interest. When I interviewed people, one of the most common sort of experiences was that they had a moment when they were young, and it’s often sort of as their sexuality is developing, they had a moment where something erotic was paired with something else, so that’s where their desires came from. So, for example, if they had their early sexual experiences kind of in a certain location, so some people who had their first hookups at camp, and then for the rest of their life they have this concept of having sex in the woods is something that’s really exciting to me because when I was young I had this early experience that kind of paired the woods with eroticism, and I also think our desires develop a lot from the culture that we live in. So, for anything to become a desire, you first have to be exposed to it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 6:54
So, depending on what everyone is into, what everyone’s talking about, that is more likely to become eroticized. So a more extreme example could be back. Do you remember when quicksand was in all the movies, when Harrison Ford kept getting stuck in the damn stuff? Like around that time, there were a lot of people that were just thinking about quicksand more, and as a result of that, people develop fantasies, fetishes, desires for quicksand just because when they were young they were exposed to quicksand and then their sexuality was developing and they were like hey what if there was a hot girl stuck in the quicksand or hey what if I was stuck in the quicksand so I think before a desire exists you need to be exposed to something that you can then eroticize and then our brains can go a long way in kind of creating these fantasies, these experiences through our early childhood experiences.

Kevin Anthony 7:49
Yeah, and I think you hit on a couple of things right there. So one of the things you talked about, I would classify under this as, like, conditioning, right? So there’s a conditioning that happens where you associate, you know, erotic behavior with something, which was your example of, like, you know, you had sex at summer camp, and now you’ve got that sort of conditioning or association there. So that’s an interesting one. You also mentioned culture. That’s another one, like what a particular culture sees as being erotic or something, you know, that you should desire. There’s also biology as well, right? So biology factors in here, where biologically we are driven to have certain desires, of course.

Kevin Anthony 8:33
So I think the bigger point that I wanted to make with that is, I think a lot of times when it comes to desire for sex, people will often say, “Well, it’s either biology, right? Or I don’t even know if they would even give it another one. I think a lot of times they just think, “Well, that’s just, you know, biology is driving us to have a desire for sex, and I think it’s much more complex than that because the culture comes in, the conditioning comes in, as well as the biology, and there’s this mix of different things that can create desire or can potentially remove desire.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 9:18
Yeah, and I also think it’s important to talk about the difference between responsive desire and spontaneous desire. So some people, when they think of desire, they just think of spontaneous desire, which just means your body is responsive. You have a hard penis. You are physiologically ready and want to have a sexual experience. But for a lot of people, specifically a lot of women, they might not just feel desire through existing in the world. It might actually have to be a response to some type of stimulant that excites them. So it could be a response to, like, having a really cute, flirty interaction at the coffee shop. It could be a response to having a nice, relaxing massage, and then their body becomes desired, becomes aroused. And I think for a lot of these folks, they might kind of, especially older people, might be like, “My desire’s gone.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 10:06
But it’s like, no, they’re just not having the right stimulation to for their body to respond and for them to feel that. And I think I love working with couples like this because then a lot of our journey is kind of figuring out, ooh, like, what does your body respond to? What concepts do you find interesting? How can we create a world that you’re living in where there are more opportunities to feel desire?

Kevin Anthony 10:29
Yeah, yeah, I think that’s a really important piece of the conversation is understanding that, and you know, that of course makes me think of sort of the arousal cycle, and I think it’s just I’ve talked about it here on the show before. But for those who maybe haven’t heard that, you know, when we’re talking about, you know, spontaneous arousal versus, you know, having to build that arousal, it’s an important thing to remember that, you know, for men, and especially when they did the original studies on, you know, like the arousal cycle, it was like, okay, you have a desire to have sex, then you have arousal, then you have sex, then you have completion, right? And then at some point, the cycle starts over, and everybody just assumed that’s the way it always is, right? And then, later research further down the line, they went, well, wait a minute, you know, a lot of times in women, right?

Kevin Anthony 11:16
There’s no desire first, right? Because in the cycle, it was desire, arousal, sex, completion. Whereas in women, often it takes arousal first to build the desire and then the sex, right? So there’s that flip in those first two steps, and this is a huge thing that so many men don’t understand, and they tend to assume that women function the same way that men do, right? And they’re like, “I have a desire for sex. Let’s go. Let’s build some arousal and let’s get it, right? And they’re like, “I don’t understand why she’s not into it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 11:51
And that’s why my main advice when I work with men is to ease into the foreplay, because research shows that men can become ready a lot faster. Whereas for us, penetration doesn’t feel good unless we’re psychologically and physically aroused, and for us that might look a little different. There’s interesting research on eye tracking when watching porn. So men tend to kind of look at the genitals; they look at the erotic stuff that’s going on, but we’re more likely to be like, what is the painting in the background like, and like, ooh, what are those sheets? And all of that can actually help add to our arousal. So something like creating an erotic environment for us then allows our body to respond in the way that feels good. But I think a lot of men sort of don’t understand that, and I think it’s just helpful to be like, how can we create an erotic scene?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 12:39
Because when you look at the research, just in general, what women tend to be aroused by is actually a lot broader. So they did a study where they had women watch a lot of porn, and even watching bonobos have sex kind of turned us on because we were like, I can envision what it’s like to be a monkey and to have sex and to have that feel good, whereas for men it tends to be a little more straightforward. Where if they were gay, they would be turned on by watching gay sex. If they were straight, straight sex straight sex would turn them on. But yeah, women’s desire is kind of broader, which I think is just interesting to know as a woman, but also to know as a man potentially engaging with that woman, in order to kind of expand the erotic experience.

Kevin Anthony 13:26
Yeah, this is something I work with clients on a lot because, you know, for us guys, it’s like so you mentioned creating a scene, right? This is one of the things I often teach my couples, you know, especially if they’re having trouble with desire, arousal, or anything like that. I’m always telling the guys, I’m like, you’ve got to create a scene. I’m like, pick up the laundry. If you have to, just throw it in the closet so it’s out of her sight. Just get the laundry out of there. Like, you know, lower the lights, put some candles on. Like, turn on a diffuser. Make it smell good. Maybe like create a scene. And the thing that guys don’t understand is, like, it could literally look like a war happened in the room, and if a guy is turned on, he doesn’t care. He doesn’t see any of it. It doesn’t matter. He’s ready to go. But for her, just having that basket of laundry sitting there on the floor, she’s thinking, “Oh my god, I didn’t finish the laundry.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 14:20
I’ve had times when I’m having sex, and I like to see the crumbs on the floor, and I’m like, ” Now I’m not in the moment anymore. And I think, yeah, it’s just interesting how all of our brains are different. I think it’s not that all men are like this and all women are like this. I think there’s a lot of variation in between, but I think just overall, it’s interesting to kind of note what type of person you are and what can help you feel relaxed to have a scene. So I often tell couples what helps you get in the mood, and for some people it’s like, do your fucking taxes, feel great about that, and then earn it. Whereas for other people it’s sort of not as important to kind of create a scene.

Kevin Anthony 14:58
Yeah, and I agree. It is a little bit different. For everybody, but there are some generalities that we can speak of, right? You know, like I just told the story about the basket of laundry, and then of course you 100% reinforce that by saying, yeah, I remember one time I was having sex, I saw crumbs on the floor, and I got distracted, right? Yeah. So there are some generalities we can speak of, but you know, the other thing too that you were mentioning is figuring out, you know, what is it that builds that arousal and desire for you. So this actually reminds me a bit of Emily Nagoski’s work, right, where she talks about accelerators and brakes, right. So the accelerators are the things that get you in the mood and build your arousal, and then the other end of that is the things like the crumbs on the floor that take you out of it and lower your desire and arousal.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 15:44
Exactly, and I think that it’s a conversation we don’t often have with our partners. And I think just the way our brains are, it’s easy to assume that your partner is the same way you are. So, kind of, I often tell couples to go on a date night and be like, in this, let’s talk about what gets us excited, what doesn’t, and figure out some sexy goals for the next six months. And I have a yes, no, maybe list. Have you heard of this? It’s sort of just like a concept where you can talk about what some sexy ideas or experiences that you could have are, and see where both partners are aligned, where they’re not aligned, and to kind of have it be this fun challenge in the next month. We’re going to try one of these three things that we’re both either definitely interested in or maybe interested in.

Kevin Anthony 16:27
Yeah, that’s a great one. I have something similar to that. I call it the sex bucket list, but it’s basically the same thing. I’ve seen you know lots of educators have something similar where it’s basically a list of different you know, sexual things, and there’s a yes, no, and a maybe column, and people get to say, you know, I would be a yes to this, I’m definitely a no to that, or I don’t know, I’m a maybe, and then you get to compare each other’s lists, and actually, it can be a really fun thing, can be a really bonding experience for couples, and it can be extremely enlightening sometimes as well. So yeah, that’s a great exercise to take couples through. Okay, so anything else that you want to share specifically about desires right now? So we kind of explained what they were. We explained where they came from. We talked about differences in desires between men and women. Is there anything else before we talk a little bit about, say, fantasies or fetishes that you want to talk about when it comes to desires?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 17:29
I would say one final thought I have is for people to sort of check in with themselves to see what sometimes gets in their head while they’re having sex, because sometimes a conversation beforehand can really help. So I work with a client who, for whatever reason, felt like she didn’t smell good, and that was something that, if her partner was going to eat her out or something was going to happen the whole time, instead of enjoying the sensation, she would be like, “Oh man, like I didn’t shower. And I think there are all these different versions of this. So to share a personal story, for me, it takes me sort of a while to achieve orgasm with a partner, and for the longest time, if someone was about to pleasure me, I would sort of get in my head about it and be like, “What’s going to happen after 30 minutes? They’re going to think they failed. And I think that, through articulating that with partners before having sex, it can allow you to relax and enjoy. So I reframed it for myself. I’m like, how lucky is it they get to eat me out for 40 minutes? That’s great. And then I tell them, hey, if at any point you want to switch it up, I’m really enjoying it, whether or not an orgasm happens.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 18:32
And for the person I worked with who was sort of anxious about her smile, for now, what she does is she just showers before sexy time, and then we’re working on kind of how to reframe that, and I think a lot of us have something that gets in our head. If it’s a one-time experience, maybe beforehand you want to know: Are we going to sleep over, or afterwards is there going to be kind of this parting that might feel emotionally intense for me? And kind of, through noticing what you need in terms of aftercare, what you need in terms of being in the moment with a partner, and then being brave enough to bring it up, which is often the hard part- it can sort of allow you to feel more connected with your desire and with pleasure.

Kevin Anthony 19:12
Yeah, and you know, a theme that I’m hearing in a lot of what you’re sharing is, and you know, I talk about this frequently, that you’ve got to talk with your partner about these things. You’ve got to have conversations about it. And this is the thing, you know. One of the things that people have told me for years, with the work that I do, is they say, “Man, you know, you talk about sex so openly and so easily that you know it feels like I have permission to do the same, but what I’ve learned from receiving that feedback from a lot of people is that most people have a really challenging time talking about sex, even with their partners. It’s one thing to talk about it on a podcast or on YouTube, right? But you should at least be able to talk about it with your partner. People struggle with that.

Speaker 1 20:01
Yeah, I feel like it’s because we don’t have any good examples of what that looks like. You know, when we look at porn or rom-coms, it doesn’t show having vulnerable conversations. It doesn’t show sharing how you want sex to look. Kind of going away from the sexual script of what we’re taught sex should be because I think we’re sort of taught that if the desire is there, it should be this smooth, seamless process that doesn’t require communication. And then people feel like they’re failing if they have to be like, “Hey, my clit’s over here, or like, “Hey, this would kind of make it better for me. You know?

Kevin Anthony 20:37
Yeah, I mean, if people have a ton of shame around sex, they also tend to not have very good communication skills. So you put those two together, like, oh man, I have shame around it. I’m a, I’m afraid to ask for what I want, or you know, whatever. I’m afraid he or she’s going to get upset, and then you combine that with, you know, the inability to have really good, emotionally mature conversations, and you end up with a recipe for not being able to talk about what it is you want and what it is you need. And then, of course, you show up to the bedroom, and you wonder why you’re not getting what you want or what you need.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 21:20
Yeah, and I also think a piece of that is spending time figuring out your own desires. So I think a lot of us feel that with the right partner, they’re just going to help us discover ourselves in new ways, which can be true. But I also think spending the time to understand your body, spending the time to reflect on what fantasies you find exciting, what does your body respond to? That’s all information that, if you’re able to figure out how to relay it to a partner, will allow for just more interesting, connected experiences.

Kevin Anthony 21:52
Yeah, that’s a really good point that you bring up, and it’s actually something. I mean, I have both men and women do this, but it’s definitely something I find works really well for women. You know, just like I, you know, we were talking about the differences between, you know, desire and arousal in that cycle for men versus women. You know, my experience has been that a lot of men have really, like, really dove into self-pleasure practices throughout their entire life, and you know, they’ve looked at their genitals from every angle possible, you know, and like, but women not so much, right? So one of the things I will often have women do is exactly what you just said: figure out what it is that works for you by yourself when there’s no distraction. You’re not worried about performance. You’re not worried about how long you take. You’re not worried about what you smell like, or the laundry, or the crumbs on the floor, any of that, right? Just you exploring yourself, figuring out what works for you. Because if you don’t even know what works for you, how can you possibly explain it to your partner?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 22:58
Yeah, and we have so many amazing toys now to help us kind of explore different variants of pleasure. I think it’s the most fun homework I ever given people to do. Masturbate. Tell me how it goes.

Kevin Anthony 23:12
Exactly. I know that is one of the fun things about the work that we do is that the homework that we give people is generally very fun.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 23:21
Fun!

Kevin Anthony 23:21
And yet, despite how fun that homework is, I can’t tell you how many times clients come back to me and go, “I was too busy this week. I didn’t get to the homework.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 23:30
Yeah, and I think oftentimes we don’t prioritize sex as part of wellness, and I think that we should. We prioritize going to the gym, eating well, all this stuff, but for whatever reason, I think a lot of us don’t prioritize sex the same way. And I think if we do, that’s how we learn about ourselves. That’s how we have exploratory sex with our partners.

Kevin Anthony 23:52
Yeah, you are 100% right about that. Not prioritizing sex as a crucial part of your well-being and your health, and that’s a. I’ve been trying to change the narrative on that, but honestly, I find it a little difficult. Yeah, I’ve talked a ton about how you can’t really separate your physical, mental, emotional health from your sexual health. Like they’re they’re all combined, right? Yeah, they impact each other. When you’re not physically or mentally healthy, it affects your sex life in a negative way. When your sex life isn’t, you know, healthy and fulfilling, it affects your mental and physical health. Like, they are so intertwined, and yet most people are not prioritizing it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 24:35
Yeah, and I am. I was talking to a therapist yesterday, and so many therapists aren’t trained that way. They’re not trained to talk about sex. They’re not trained to ask people about their experiences. It’s still sort of thought of as this separate thing, as opposed to, as you said, an integral part of everything. And I think there are baby steps in a good direction there, but we’ve got a ways to go.

Kevin Anthony 24:59
We sure do. I know it’s kind of interesting because the place where I sit in the work that I do is what I consider coaching work. In other words, I’m not a licensed therapist, and there’s some advantages to that because when you’re bound by a license, there are certain things you can and can’t say that you can and can’t recommend to your clients, so I feel like I have a lot more freedom in the area to do that. But one of the other things that I think is really interesting about it is that there are, as you said, a lot of therapists out there who struggle to talk about sex, and because it’s such an integrated part of who you are, both physically, mentally, and emotionally. If you can’t, as a therapist, talk about sex in a healthy way that helps people, you’re really doing your clients a disservice.

Kevin Anthony 25:53
Now, I will give some therapists some credit in the sense that I have been hired by actual licensed therapists to come in and teach the sex component for them, because they’re not really comfortable. And I’m like, that’s great. Okay, if that’s not something that you want to do, I get it. You didn’t. You didn’t go to school to get your degree and license because you were interested in sex. You did it because you wanted to work on other aspects of the human psyche. Great. Then at least get somebody who really does work with sex to help you in that area. So some of them have figured that out and caught on. But it’s just interesting because a lot of times, you know, clients are like, I don’t know, should I see a therapist? Should I see a psychiatrist? Or like, I don’t know, do I need a coach? I’m like, you need somebody that can talk about sex openly, honestly, without shame, without inhibitions, without any crap in the way, right? So they can help you get clear.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 26:50
And it’s also similar. Similar, as I work with a lot of folks who usually find me because of the sexual intimacy issue, but then a lot of our sessions are talking about their mom, their kids, and their lives, like it’s so integrated, and there’s kind of a feedback loop there that a lot of people don’t realize in terms of confidence and well-being and the type of intimacy you’re having.

Kevin Anthony 27:13
Oh, absolutely. I mean, we talked when we were talking about where the desires come from. We talked about the cultural and the conditioning aspects of it, right? So, if you’re working with somebody, as you well know, and you just stated, you know, if either of us is working with somebody around sexual issues, it’s always other stuff that comes up in that. Always, there’s something else. A lot of the time, people’s sexual dysfunction doesn’t have anything to do with sex itself. It’s some other experience that they had that wasn’t even necessarily overtly sexual, right? That created that that issue. So, yeah, they’re so intertwined. You really can’t separate them.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 27:54
We’re such complex and beautiful beings. I love just like the way our brain interacts with our body, and learning everyone’s story is, yeah, because I just wrote a book about fetishes, and a lot of it was doing these in-depth interviews with people about their experiences around sexuality, desire, and how it impacts their current relationships, their current feelings of shame, and how to kind of get to a place of acceptance. And it’s just that we’re so different, and there are so many different sort of ways to find that inner acceptance. But, but yeah, I learned a lot.

Kevin Anthony 28:31
Yeah, we are definitely complex individuals, and you know, I mean, I guess that’s kind of what keeps me interested in doing this work over the years because everybody is so different, and we are so complex, and there are so many different factors and moving parts that it’s just fascinating to me to try to solve everybody is a puzzle. Everybody is a new puzzle, and it’s like a new problem to solve.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 28:57
Do you feel like you’ve solved the puzzle of yourself? Like, do you think you could use this knowledge and put it to use?

Kevin Anthony 29:06
When it comes to second relationships, I got that pretty wired. I mean, not to say there isn’t more to learn, but

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 29:13
Yeah, that’s amazing.

Kevin Anthony 29:15
As for the rest of who I am, I mean, you know, at this point I’m 52 years old. I’ve figured most of it out. Like, I pretty much know who I am. I feel confident in who I am and how I show up and move throughout the world. But having said that, we do change as individuals as time goes on, and we do discover new things. So to think that I’ve got it all figured out, and that’s that for however much time I have left, would not be realistic.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 29:44
Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 29:47
Okay. I need to take a short break. When we come back, I want to talk about fantasies and fetishes and how they differ from desires, because we brought that up a couple of times in the conversation. So I want to talk a little bit more about that, and then of course I want to make sure that we get to, you know, how couples can bring these things up with each other, and how they can maybe make some of these things happen in real life, because that’s that’s where the rubber meets the road right there. We could talk about it all day long, but we want to give them some good practical stuff at the end.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 30:18
Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 30:21
All right. If your relationship feels disconnected, if your sex life has lost its spark, or if you just know something needs to change, then relationship and intimacy coaching can help. I have created transformational coaching programs for men, women, and couples, all designed to help you create deeper intimacy, better communication, and the kind of passionate relationship you actually want, whether you’re struggling with intimacy, confidence, desire, emotional connection, or recurring relationship challenges. You don’t have to figure it out alone. The best place to start is with a free strategy call, where we’ll talk through your challenges, get clarity on what’s really going on, and create a personalized plan for moving forward. Go to kevinantonycoaching.com today to book your free strategy call. That is kevinanthanycoaching.com.

Kevin Anthony 31:08
All right. So we’ve spent, you know, about roughly half the show now talking about desires, which was kind of the main piece that we really wanted to talk about today. But obviously, when we’re talking about that, the idea of fantasies and both fantasies and fetishes comes up. So let’s talk about them a little bit. How is a fantasy different from a desire?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 31:32
I think of a fantasy as an imagined scenario that excites you. A desire is something that often leads to an action; like, you want something, and you’re open to an experience. Whereas fantasies are more conceptual. So I work with a lot of folks who have thoughts that arouse them, but in actuality may not want to experience it in real life. So, for example, Justin Leigh Miller has a great-I think the largest study of fantasies that has been done before-and he found that the most common fantasy folks have is having sex with multiple partners.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 32:17
But a lot of people who have that fantasy, most of them don’t actually want to go to an orgy tomorrow, but they’re into the concept of imagining there was a third person here, what that could look like, and I think it’s a fun thing to kind of parse out with clients, sort of what the fantasy is and how to break down the fantasy into the feeling that they want to have. So is it like they want to feel desired, and it would be even sexier if there were two people desiring them as opposed to one? So they want to just feel exposed and watched. And how can you kind of use that overarching feeling that you want, either with other folks or just as something you can explore with one partner, or something you can explore with yourself?

Kevin Anthony 33:04
Yeah, a couple of really important things that you shared there, which is that, you know, with the fantasy, it’s not necessarily something they want to actually happen. That’s, I think, in the whole discussion of fantasies. That’s probably the most important thing that we have to share because, you know, you said, well, you know, the most common fantasy is a threesome, but most people don’t want to go out to an orgy tonight. This is especially true for women, and this is another big misconception for men because when their partner says to them You know, I have a fantasy about a threesome. He immediately goes, “I can make that happen. I know just who to call. She lives down the street, right?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 33:51
He either does that or he does. Wow, I’m inadequate. One penis isn’t enough. I’m going to feel ashamed about it. I feel like both journeys can happen.

Kevin Anthony 33:58
That’s true. But you know, here’s a funny thing that another funny thing that I’ve learned about men when it comes to threesome fantasies is that when they hear threesome, their brain automatically goes to two women, right? And so I’ve done whole YouTube videos on this subject where I tell men, I say, be careful what you wish for, because I can almost guarantee you, if you say to your woman, “I want to have a threesome, and she goes, “I might be open to that, right? You go, “Yes, all right, I’m finally going to get to have that threesome with the two women I’ve always wanted to. She’s going to go, “I think we should invite George. He’s going, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute, that’s not what I had in mind, right? So that’s a thing that happens a lot of times. If she’s even open to it, you know, often she’s gonna want potentially another man, and that’s a scenario that most men just don’t even consider when this is happening.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 34:54
Yeah, and that’s why when I work with couples, if they say, “Hey, I have.” A fantasy of a threesome. The next step is: how can we kind of create a role-play scenario where they can both imagine what it would actually be like, and I think there are a lot of fun, creative ways to do this. So if the woman does have the fantasy of two guys, how does it feel to maybe tie her up and have the second guy be a dildo, and then, as a couple, you can kind of see is the man is feeling jealousy in this experience, or if this is erotic to him? That’s how you kind of figure out how your body responds, and then also, what do we actually want it to look like?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 35:30
I think sometimes we think of three Sims as involving penetration, but sometimes it could be just like a nice, relaxing massage session with three people and kind of enjoying each other’s bodies that way, and I think with the right attitude of kind of being creative and exploring, it can be a really fun thing for a partner to kind of just play around with the concept, and then that may or may not lead to an actual experience with another person. But regardless, you’re learning more about yourselves and more about the gender of the person you would want to have the experience with, and kind of other key factors that are needed before you potentially take any steps towards making anything happen.

Kevin Anthony 36:09
Yeah, that’s really great advice to role-play it out and see, because that is a way that people could start to actually get a sense of the realities of the situation. Yeah, that’s really great. Have them role-play it out. Something else that you mentioned when it comes to fantasies is that oftentimes it’s really more about the feeling that they want to have rather than the actual thing. And I think again, this is true for both men and women, but I think it’s even more true for women. So you know, in some you know surveys I’ve seen, you know, if it’s not the top, it’s one of the top fantasies for women is often a rape fantasy, right? Now people would go, “That’s insane! Like, why would they want? And it’s like, no, they don’t actually want that, right? No woman actually wants that. But what she’s seeking is the feeling of surrender, right? Of letting go, of being taken, but she doesn’t want it to actually happen like that, right? So that’s an extreme example, but I used it because it does such a good job of explaining the difference between wanting something actually in real life and wanting a certain feeling from the experience.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 37:23
Yeah, so I have a fantasy workshop that I’ve been hosting a lot, both with couples and just with individuals. And the workshop is all about how we can break down the feeling. And then if you start with the feeling you want to have, then there are a lot of different ways to get there. So if you want to feel like you’re losing control, then it’s like, do you want to do a student teacher scenario? Do you want to play with the physicality of losing control? Do you want to explore BDSM? Like, there are so many avenues towards the feeling that you want, and I think that’s how it becomes a creative endeavor of how do you want to feel, and then what are the ways we can go there?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 37:59
And then for some people, it might be a more extreme thing, whereas for others, it might be kind of just a more subtle way of kind of envisioning a different experience. Like I work with someone who was really into the idea of being watched, and before we kind of talked about going to a sex party or what that could look like, they just kind of put on porn. They had their partner there, and they just kind of took off their clothes and imagined people were watching them. And they kind of were like, “How does it feel to be desired in that way? And then, what are some steps they actually did want to take towards experiencing that with other people? So it’s kind of like a fun thing. And I do think that I often work with people who kind of go from step zero to 100, and I think then they call me and they’re like, “That didn’t work. Now we have to, like, process the trauma of that weird experience before we can kind of figure out what the future looks like.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 38:54
So I always tell couples or people who are looking to explore fantasies to really, really take it slow and to make sure you have good communication with your partner, so you can take baby steps towards something. And when you do that, it’s like you might end up at the orgy. It might take five years to kind of get mentally prepared, figure out where and what it could look like for you. But I think the fun is in the journey.

Kevin Anthony 39:19
Yeah, I completely agree. I’ve told this story many times on the show before, but when I was young, in my 20s, my girlfriend and I at the time decided we wanted to go to a sex club when neither of us had ever been to one. So talk about going, like, you know, zero to 100, right? Like we had no experience with any of this. Well, this is the funny part of the story, right? So we did find that there was one close to where we lived, and you had to make reservations to show up. So we did that. We showed up. We’re sitting in the parking lot outside, and neither of us gets out. Like, I turn the car off, and nobody gets out. And I look at her. She’s looking at me. I go, “You want to go in? She looks at me. She said, “I don’t know. You want to go in? And then we said, “Maybe we’ll try it another time. We literally turned the car on. We took off, and we did eventually come back later on. But you know, we had no guides. We had nobody like you helping us through this. We didn’t know that we should start. You know, with maybe something a little easier to handle at first. We were just gonna dive in headfirst, and it was a hilarious fail to start when we did go back the second time. We actually had a very pleasant experience, and it was great, but you know,

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 40:45
Well, it’s nice that you were able to not push it. You know, some people feel like they have to kind of push through. If like you guys weren’t ready and you just made yourselves go that first time, it’s possible you would have had an experience that you didn’t want. Yeah, weren’t ready for.

Kevin Anthony 41:00
That’s absolutely possible. Yeah, I guess kudos to us for bailing it. But yeah, I mean, all of that just to say, like, you know, the way that you are helping couples approach it, I think, is a really great way to do it. Let’s start role-playing it. Let’s start smaller. Let’s ease into it because these things can be incredibly challenging, and they can bring up all kinds of stuff that you didn’t even know was there. Right? Like you think it’s all fun and games, and then suddenly you’re in the sex club, and like your trauma gets triggered, and you freak out. Like, that stuff happens a lot.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 41:39
Yeah, and if you sign up for my mailing list, I have a fantasy date night package, which is sort of just like a free package for couples to start conversations around this. Where you go out, you get cozy, and let’s kind of get the conversation going about what our fantasies are, how we want to feel, and maybe some concrete experiences that we can have that take us baby steps towards whatever our fantasy is.

Kevin Anthony 42:06
Yeah, absolutely, that’s great. So I’ve got a lot more to cover, and we’re getting close to the end of the show here. But I want to touch on it because we’ve mentioned it already: fetishes and how that’s different from fantasies and desires.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 42:24
So fetishes are my niche. I work a lot with people who have erotic fascinations that the rest of the population might not consider to be sexual. Fetishes tend to start at a young age, and they tend to be specific, and the person who has the fetish tends to be very excited about it. So I compare it to someone who’s a Star Wars Trekkie. No, a Trekkie. Someone who’s really into Star Trek. Someone who’s really into comic books. Like, it tends to be an erotic fascination that they have. So I have one person who’s turned on by quicksand, and whenever I post a story on Instagram, his immediate thought is like, “Is there quicksand in the background? What’s going on? Like, even if it’s just a tree. So I think that what the beautiful thing about people with fetishes is, they tend to have sort of this erotic focus.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 43:17
But I think what the research gets wrong is that just because they have this erotic focus, that doesn’t mean they don’t have a series of other desires. So it’s not the only thing that gets them going necessarily. It could be one of many sources of desire, but it does tend to be specific. When we look at folks with fetishes, their desires tend to start at a younger age. Often, there’s one or two experiences that they can share that kind of either through classical conditioning, as we talked about, through culture, that kind of imprints something that it’s an object, it’s a body part, it’s an experience, but it’s something that they tend to find really specifically erotic. And I love working with folks to figure out how we can kind of take steps towards experiencing this. And I think another myth around fetishes is that people always experience them alone, but that’s really, really not the case. There are lots of ways to bring partners in. There are lots of ways to have it be this dyadic experience that brings in an object or brings in something else, and I think the hardest thing about people with fetishes is they often feel like they have two selves.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 44:29
They have their fetish self, and they have their other self, and that’s because, compared to a lot of other fantasies, I think fetishes still have a negative connotation for a lot of folks. They kind of think of the creepy dude who’s like smelling people’s feet at, like, the shoe store or whatever. In my survey, almost all of the stories that I heard were from people who have these desires that add to their life, and the negativity is because we live in a society that doesn’t yet accept them, so they feel like they have to have these. The selves and the work I do are kind of about how we integrate these two selves and let go of shame and sort of have these harder conversations with partners around it.

Kevin Anthony 45:11
Yeah, you know, there is definitely a lot of negative connotation around the idea or term fetishes, and I’m curious, you know, if you know, like, what does the science say about whether our fetishes are healthy for people, or are they not healthy for people?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 45:30
I think that what can make it unhealthy is the culture we’re in. So if we live in a world where people can’t share their fetishes with others, people feel isolated and alone. Feeling isolated and alone is never healthy for people. But the fetishes themselves are not unhealthy at all. I think a lot of the time they can add joy; they can add connection. So if the person’s able to get to a place where they don’t have shame, they are kind of like, “Hey, this is a quirky part of my sexuality. This excites me. Hey, how can we incorporate this? Then it can actually add a lot, and it can be really fun to play with. But I think the problem is we’re still in a world that’s struggling to be sex positive, and I think fetishes are kind of like still the kid that’s left alone at the camping trip. When I think about it, we’re doing a lot better with exploring different types of romantic orientations and how people can have different sexual identities, but I think there still is this stigma around fetishes, and that’s sort of what I wrote the book about: how can we reframe fetish and redefine it for what it is?

Kevin Anthony 46:36
Yeah, I’d be curious to know if they did any studies on that, but from my personal point of view, you know, having done coaching work around sexuality for a long time, is I would say it’s really only a problem when you know, just like you know, people talk about, you know sort of mild obsessive compulsive disorders. Like, in other words, if you like to wash your hands and you feel like every time you come home, you should wash your hands, or you do it a couple of times throughout the day. Like, that’s not really negatively impacting your life at all. But if you get to the point where you’re literally washing your hands 100 times a day, and you can’t touch things, and you can’t go out of the house, right? And now it’s having a negative impact on your life. That’s when it becomes a problem. And I think the same is true for fetishes, right? A healthy use of a fetish is not a problem at all. But if it starts to consume you, or if it prevents you from being able to enjoy sex without the fetish, right, or if it prevents you from having, you know, good relationships with partners because of it, or something like that, that’s where I think it can be considered negative at that point.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 47:40
I think it’s complicated because I think with any form of sexuality, not just fetishes, if it’s taking up too much of your time- if you’re masturbating 47 times a day and you miss the Zoom call because you’re doing it- I think it doesn’t necessarily matter if you’re thinking about balloons or having sex with someone with a big booty or whatever. I think it’s like sex can feel all-encompassing, but I think there’s a stereotype that people with fetishes are worse, and I don’t think there’s research to back up that just because you’re turned on by a specific body part or a specific thing, that means it’s more likely to kind of take over your whole world, you know?

Kevin Anthony 48:17
Yeah. Well, no, I agree. So the point I was making was exactly that, which is that anything that starts to negatively impact you, like you said, if you’re masturbating 47 times a day, right, and now you’re not getting your work done, you’re not earning money, you’re behind on your rent, like that’s a problem, right? So whereas normally masturbation done in a healthy way is actually very good for you, you can take that, and you can turn it into something that’s actually negatively impacting you in your life, and so that’s kind of the point I was trying to make with the fetishes too. Yeah, you know, normal, healthy use of a fetish I don’t see as being a problem, but if taken to an extreme level, obviously it can be a problem. That that was kind of the

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 48:58
Yeah, that makes sense.

Kevin Anthony 49:00
I wanted to draw that distinction because I know that a lot of people think fetish is some weird, crazy thing when these people are all mentally disturbed, right? So, okay, we’ve only got a little bit of time left, and I do want to talk about two more things. So, one of them is: if somebody has a desire, or a fantasy, or even potentially a fetish, and they’re concerned about how to bring this up with their partner, could you give them some guidance? How does one bring up a desire, a fantasy, or a fetish with their partner?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 49:38
Definitely, I would say the first thing is creating a container, so not just randomly dropping it on them. Especially not while you’re having sex. I think it’s kind of important to be like, “Hey, are you around tomorrow night? Let’s talk a little about that. Excuse me. Let’s talk a little bit about our desires, or let’s talk a bit about fantasies, or I have something specific that I’m excited to tell you about. Then in that conversation, I don’t think it’s one-sided. It’s not just me being like, “Hey, this really turns me on. It’s asking your partner, “Hey, I want to make all your sexy dreams come true. What does that look like for you? Is there anything I can do better? Is there anything we can talk about together?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 50:16
And then from that, being like, “For me, this is something that really excites me, or this is a fantasy I have, and when bringing it up, I think it’s really important to bring in the partner because I think sometimes partners feel a bit of competition if you’re bringing up something like I really want to bring in a third, or shoes really turn me on. That could feel like competition, but if you’re like, hey, I think it would be really sexy to see you in these beautiful heels, or it would be really sexy to be with you in this moment where another person was there. I think that makes the person kind of more open to hearing them out, and to kind of see if they’re open to just talking about it because that’s the first step. I think in that initial conversation, you’re not going to decide anything. You’re kind of just opening the door for this type of dialog, and then hopefully, if it goes well, it can become this thing where every couple of weeks you check in. It can be kind of one of the couple goals, as you what did you call it? Couple goals or like sexy goals, where every month you have a conversation of, hey, what else do we want to bring in? This is still a fantasy I have. This is the way I want to feel. How can we explore that together? How can we explore that with others? And trying to just normalize having conversations and letting it develop as it does.

Kevin Anthony 51:39
Yeah, I really like the point you brought up about creating a container because I think that’s really important. And you’re absolutely right. Like, sexy time is happening. You’re half undressed. You’re in the bedroom. That’s not the time to whip out. By the way, I got this fetish thing, right? Yeah. You want to do that right now.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 51:59
No.

Kevin Anthony 51:59
You want to see a deer in headlights look of fear?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 52:05
Exactly, and I think kind of letting the person know the topic allows them to also think about it beforehand. You know, so being like, tomorrow we’re going to talk about fantasies. Then maybe during that day, the other partner is going to be thinking, “Hey, what are my fantasies? What do I want to explore? What can make sex better for me?

Kevin Anthony 52:20
Yeah, it’s so, so important. Even if you’re like, you know what, we’re the most vanilla sex people on the planet. This is still such a good exercise for you to do, right? Think about the, you know what type of, you know kind of vanilla you like, right? And then sit down and have a conversation about it. These conversations are so important, and they will remove so much fear, anxiety, and shame. They will help you get your needs met so much better. I mean, there’s just really no downside to it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 52:57
It’s just being brave, and it’s a skill like any other. So the first time you bring up sex, if you’ve never brought it up in your relationship, you’re going to be terrified. But then when it goes well, the next time you’re like, “Hey, that went well. Now I’m developing the skill of kind of communicating more. And I find that when couples have conversations outside of the bedroom, it becomes easier during sex to kind of be like, “Hey, actually, can we try this position? Or like, hey, I have a blindfold over there. What do you think about exploring that or whatever?

Kevin Anthony 53:24
Yeah, definitely. If you’ve already had an opportunity to at least talk about it beforehand, it will absolutely make the actual thing in the moment much, much easier because then people don’t feel put on the spot, right? They already have some context for it, and it really does make things a whole lot easier. Okay, I got one last question here, which is: so they’ve had a conversation about it, right? They know what their desires are. Now they’re going to move to that next step, and that next step is: we’ve decided we would like to make one or two, or maybe a few of these desires, fantasies, or fetishes happen. How do couples go about doing that?

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 54:10
This is the most fun part. This is the part I love working with couples on because it is genuinely a very creative process of seeing where the desires overlap, the feelings that they want, and then the steps you can take towards that. I often recommend, as I said earlier, role play is a really fun way to kind of get into a different mentality. And I think role play- some people kind of are scared of that concept, but it doesn’t have to be wearing a crazy outfit and like doing anything outside. It could be for the next three minutes; we’re gonna kind of try to really lean into what it feels like to relinquish control, and even if there’s nothing physically going on, that’s the mindset they’re both in. And then even a subtle touch during that time can feel more intense because their mind is kind of primed to get into this different mindset. And I think it’s something. That can take a lot of time to explore.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 55:03
I have a really good role-play workshop that’s fun and kind of helps people. How do you create a three-minute scene as a start, and then from there you can kind of see how it goes. It could also be sharing fantasies during sex can be really fun once you kind of know what the fantasy is. I think maybe bringing up, as we said, a new fetish or whatever isn’t a good idea during sex. But if you both decided, hey, like, I’m really into the concept of forbidden sex, so while we have sex, I’m gonna kind of pretend that this isn’t allowed, and you can figure out what the context of that is. Is it like a stepsister situation? Is it that you’re about to marry their best friend, and even if they’re not dirty-talking about it, even if they’re both just thinking that it’s wrong, that can be enough to kind of help it feel a little more edgy and a little erotic. And then from there, can they play along more? How do we figure out the words for this? How do we maybe figure out a version of this that feels a little more real?

Kevin Anthony 56:00
Yeah, I mean, I really like your approach of sort of easing people into it, right? Starting with the role-play, or starting with the conversations first, right? And then starting with, you know, some role-play and just like working their way into it. I think that is such a good way to do it because I think, you know, you mentioned this earlier too. Like people just go to 100% and then they go, “Oh my god! And now they’re coming back to you to try to fix all the damage that they did. Yeah, because it was like, “Oh, we didn’t prepare at all, and we just went to a sex club, and he ended up, you know, having sex with somebody or giving some guy a blow job, and now I’m all pissed off, and you know, like now you’ve got all this damage you have to repair. So I love that idea of sort of easing into it. And

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 56:46
I think it’s really fun if you want to feel like it’s taboo or wrong. How can you be creative with what that could be? It could be having sex when you didn’t shower. Like, that feels wrong. It could be someone I was working with. There was a Jewish holiday where they’re not supposed to have sex, and then they felt so dirty and bad doing it on this holiday, and they decided they would be ethically okay with that. But it’s like that could be a way to lean into, like, this is so wrong, but we want each other so much that we’re going to make it happen no matter what. And then from there, of course, there are way kind of more intense ways you can explore that feeling. But if the feeling is what you want. There are also easy kind of baby steps towards that.

Kevin Anthony 57:26
Yeah, and I think if you’re not sure, if there’s any level of uncertainty, start with the baby steps. You can always ramp it up a little faster if you want. But if you just go straight to 100, there’s no going back really from that, you know. Like, what’s done is done, as they say.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 57:45
Yeah, or it’s like six months of therapy later. We’re like, okay, now let’s start again.

Kevin Anthony 57:52
Exactly, exactly. And you know, like, you know, especially when we’re talking about somebody that you know is our partner, somebody that we’re committed to, we never really want to do things that cause more damage or, you know, take us six months of therapy. I mean, we don’t want to do that with anybody that we’re with, but especially with, you know, our partners. So there’s nothing wrong with starting slow, easing into it, figuring out what works for both of you, and that way you avoid potentially years of therapy, or, you know, relationships damaged beyond repair, sort of thing. So it should be fun. Sex is about fun. I’ve quoted this a million times, but you remember Larry Flint and his hustler stores. Like the slogan used to be “Relax, it’s just sex, right? You know, and it’s just like, yes, we overcomplicate it so much, and we put so much pressure on ourselves, and it’s like just relax, relax, have fun. This is a normal part of being a human being, and if you just slow down a little bit and take it step by step, you can actually have fun and enjoy it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 59:03
And I think a huge part of that is having conversations about sex because we feel alone because we don’t know what’s going on with our friends. So I like being the friend that kind of brings up sexual scenarios, and then everyone’s like, “Oh, me too. You can’t come from penetration. Hey, we’re not alone. And then when you know that, then it’s a lot easier to come back with a partner and have the mindset be, I’m relaxed. I want to be creative. I want to explore pleasure, and not everything will work. That’s kind of part of the fantasy. You also learn what you don’t like, and that’s valuable information. That doesn’t mean you failed. It just means, okay, this this isn’t for us.

Kevin Anthony 59:40
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Okay, we are out of time, but I want to give you an opportunity to do two things. One, if there’s any last advice you want to share with people about desires, fantasies, fetishes, anything like that, and then, of course, please tell people where they can find more about your work and your book that’s coming.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 59:59
Yeah, so. Say the final piece of advice, and this is what I touch on in my book a lot, is that we’re actually all weird, so we’re all normal. So it’s like so many people feel so alone if they have a sexual thought or if it’s taking up space in their brain. Whatever it is, you’re not alone. There are others like you. And in terms of finding me, I have a book on fetishes that comes out October 27 with Hachette Publishing, and it’s a series of stories as well as practical advice to accept your desires, to talk to partners about it, and just interesting research as to where our desires come from. And I’m New York-based. I host a lot of events in New York City. I host dating events. I host kinky carnivals. I host workshops on sexual confidence, dirty talk, all that. And pretty soon, I’m going to be taking on a few more clients. And I really like to work with people on kind of creative ways to explore their fantasies and desires. So you can find me on Instagram at Miss Bloom Sex Educator, M I S S B L O O M, or my website is nikkidavisf.com.

Kevin Anthony 1:01:10
Awesome. Well, Nikki, I want to thank you for coming on the show. It was a really fun conversation, and I appreciated it.

Niki Davis-Fainbloom 1:01:18
Was so fun chatting with you. Thanks for having me.

Kevin Anthony 1:01:21
You’re welcome. All right, everybody, that’s all the time I have for this episode, and I will see you next week. I hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe, leave me a review, and share it with your friends. And for more free exclusive content, join me in the Passion Vault at kevinantonycoaching.com/vault. That’s kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault. Thanks for listening, and remember, as Celine used to say, you’re amazing!