Kevin Anthony 0:05
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, the place to be for honest and real talk about relationships and sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony, and I am here to help you have the relationship of your dreams and the best sex of your life.

Kevin Anthony 0:26
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 421, and it is titled “Should You Still Talk to Your Ex? And What If You Interviewed All of Them, including the one-night stands and everybody else? I hope today that what we’re going to do is bust some of the myths that surround your exes. Hopefully, we can get you to see past relationships and breakups a little bit differently. And along the way, if we can entertain you with some really hilarious stories, then I think we’ve done a good job today. If you’re watching on YouTube or Spotify, you can see that I have a guest who I will introduce in a moment. She’s going to tell us exactly what she did and why, and what she learned from it, and everything else. This is a subject. I mean, obviously, it’s one that comes up when you do coaching work, right?

Kevin Anthony 1:23
Like, this is going to come up because so much of people’s trauma is wrapped up in their past relationships, right? So you talk about past relationships a lot, but it’s also a subject that’s kind of near and dear to my heart because the way I have approached it throughout my life is very different than the way most people have approached it, and I’m sure we’ll talk about this more as we go through the show. But I, over the course of my life, have maintained contact and friendships with basically everybody I’ve ever dated. I mean, there were probably a couple that I went on a couple of dates with here or there that I lost track of and don’t even remember, but all the major ones I have stayed connected with, especially through the help of modern technology, and we maintain friendships, and we comment on each other’s life events and stuff, and that’s just not something that most people can wrap their brains around. So we’re going to dive into how that’s possible and why you maybe would want to try that once we get going.

Kevin Anthony 2:23
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Kevin Anthony 3:21
Okay, my guest today is Miriam Katz, and she is a Los Angeles-based performer, public speaking coach, and podcaster. Her podcast, Ex Appeal, in which she interviews every person she’s ever been romantic with on any level, has been profiled in the New York Post and has been heatedly discussed on The View; I can only imagine what The View had to say about that. Welcome to the show, Miriam.

Miriam Katz 3:48
Thank you so much. And first, I want to say, when you were talking about still being friends with exes, you sounded so calm. Maybe you generally sound calm, but there was something. I always think that when you are calm about something, it’s right. So it’s not that this is this wild thing you do. It’s just what you do. It’s part of your belief system, and it really works for you.

Kevin Anthony 4:08
Yeah, I think what it really means is there still isn’t an emotional trigger around those past relationships, right? And some of them were ones that I broke off, and some of them were ones where, you know, one or two of them. I was like, I thought I was going to marry this woman, right? And she broke it off, and it didn’t, and it didn’t work out. But it does go to show that I don’t hold resentment towards any of them.

Miriam Katz 4:31
And things can transform.

Kevin Anthony 4:33
Absolutely, they can. And, like, you know, now I mean, most of them, you know, were pretty far in the past, so we were younger at the time, but like now I watch them on social media, and I watch them, you know, posting pictures of their kids, and a lot of their kids are off going to college now and stuff like that. And I’m like, I’m commenting. I’m like, oh, congratulations! I’m like, this is amazing. So that is not how most people do it.

Miriam Katz 4:58
Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 4:59
So. All right, I know we’re both laughing. We haven’t even started yet. You have a show called Ex Appeal where you literally have interviewed every person you’ve ever been romantic with, and one of the things that’s…..

Miriam Katz 5:11
That’s in process. I’ve done 21. I’m in the middle of a long list.

Kevin Anthony 5:17
Well, and people are like, oh my god, 21, and there’s still more to go. That’s probably what they’re thinking. But you, you really were, like, thinking of every person you’ve ever, like, gone on dates with, or, like, had sex with, or…..

Miriam Katz 5:29
I went on a single date, and we didn’t kiss. I’m not counting that, except for my first date in the fifth grade because we weren’t gonna kiss. I wasn’t kissing yet, but anything with some kind of romantic connection- any kiss, like you said, a one-night stand, and then also years-long relationships. Yeah, because all of it to me has some meaning, and there’s something to talk about in all those cases. Honestly, somebody I went on one date with that didn’t continue, I probably also would have something to say to them, but it has to have gone a teeny bit further than that.

Kevin Anthony 6:00
Yeah. Well, the reason why I mentioned that it was just because, you know, people might be thinking, well, that’s a long list. Like, there are 20-something, and there’s a bunch more to go. But if the average person were to sit down and think about every person they kissed at a party or went on a couple of dates with that they don’t consider to be somebody they dated per se, but they did have some sort of connection that went, you know, a little further than sitting there and having dinner and can’t, you know, like waiting to get the hell out of there. So most people would probably become the….

Miriam Katz 6:33
And especially if you didn’t get married or got married later or lived in a city in your 20s, then it you know you just have weekends.

Kevin Anthony 6:46
Yes, that is true, especially if you lived in a city environment and waited longer. I mean, that was true for me. I didn’t get married until I was 41; I think it was 41 or 42, somewhere around there. And we both were open for parts of our lives, and that also ups the numbers. Yes, it does. To have a committed relationship and then still be out in the world. Absolutely. So, okay. So you’ve got this list. You’ve interviewed 20-something of them already. Where did the idea come from to say, you know what? I’m gonna go back and just find as many of them as I can and interview them.

Miriam Katz 7:23
It came from sadness. I felt like I hadn’t processed a lot of the relationships. I have been friends like you with certain exes, but I felt the weight of my past relationships and felt like I wanted to go back and reconnect in order to be able to let go of it and have more brain space and emotional space. So I had the idea to do it, and then it actually did work. I do feel much lighter. So that’s always magical when an idea comes out of thin air, and then it actually functions. So I felt this weight had the idea, felt better even having the idea, and then yeah, it’s been really interesting and moving.

Kevin Anthony 8:14
Yeah. So basically, the answer to your question is you were feeling that you had stuff that was unresolved, and the idea you came up with was, well, what if I just reached out to all of them?

Miriam Katz 8:24
And resolve it with them, and not just talk to my friends about it or think about it in my head? There was a certain level of processing that wasn’t complete without the other person. I think because, and this gets into the myths, I think because people tend to simplify the ends of relationships, or if it’s over, you want to exaggerate what happened and maybe put yourself first. And I think I actually wanted to make it as complicated as it was, not have the narrative oversimplified. I wanted to. It’s like couples therapy versus individual therapy: you have to deal with the reality of the other person’s experience, and also you get to finally say things you’ve wanted to say or hear things, hear answers to questions, and I also wanted to look into the meaning behind my attraction to certain people and ways in which it took me to another level, even situations that were really difficult. So it was all-it’s individual, certainly for each situation. But the overall feeling was, I want to have either an exit interview, a second breakup, a funeral, whatever you want to call it, but a second, real emotional, connected encounter, not to then get into it more, but actually to really be able to say goodbye to it.

Kevin Anthony 9:46
Yeah,

Miriam Katz 9:47
Get over it more.

Kevin Anthony 9:49
So you know, it’s interesting because one of the things that popped into my mind as you were sharing, you know, what inspired you to do that was, you know, 12-step programs, right? When somebody goes through a 12-step program, one of the Steps. I don’t remember which one, but I know that one of those,

Miriam Katz 10:02
Yeah, yeah.

Kevin Anthony 10:03
One of those steps is that you go out and you make amends to all the people that you screwed up to because of your addiction, right? And so that’s really interesting because, you know, in the world of coaching or psychology, we will often tell people that you don’t need to have the other person present in order to work through your stuff, and that is true. However, depending on whether or not the person is open enough, it can sometimes be a lot easier to process it if you can sit down with the other person. Now, that does generally take two people who are emotionally mature enough to actually have a conversation about this, and not just go right back into old patterns and create more trauma and damage. But if you have access to that, it actually could be a really amazing clearing and healing process.

Miriam Katz 10:57
Yeah, and in some cases, I’ve definitely been surprised by the level of someone’s openness, and then in one case, this particular season- season two is coming out right now. There was somebody I spoke with who really wasn’t open to owning his part of what happened, and it was still really helpful because I got to say it in front of him, and he can do whatever processing he wants. He can hear it later; it can affect him later or not. But I got to say what was hard for me, and even that was really helpful. That’s very different than writing a letter. There is that, yeah. In therapy, there have been plenty of letters I’ve written to family members or whoever else, and it’s just a very different thing when you sit down and say it in front of a person, and that was actually an unusual case. That particular episode 15, generally speaking, it goes well. And even if there’s, even if we remember different things or remember things differently, it people have been pretty open to talking about it. Sometimes it takes a second to get someone to agree to go on, but once we’re in the room and talking, there are tears. Yeah, there are really good memories. Feels really good.

Kevin Anthony 12:14
Yeah, I’ve obviously never had an ex reach out and say, “Would you like to come on my show and talk about our relationship from 25 years ago, but but if they did, I would totally be down for it. I think it would actually be a lot of fun.

Miriam Katz 12:29
And you would, and you and I are both podcast hosts. But some people are absolutely not extroverts, or their marital situation is something, or some people don’t want to talk about the past. That’s really interesting. It made me understand that I really like talking about the past, and it feels really healthy not to be stuck in it, but actually to get healthy in my present. And people, yeah, don’t want to deal with it.

Kevin Anthony 12:53
And that’s part of the problem, right? So, like at the very beginning of this episode, you said, “Well, you were so calm when you were describing that, and I said, “Yeah, that’s because I don’t have trauma or trigger or charge around it anymore, right? And I think that the people who just don’t want to talk about it still have some drama or charge around it, which is why they don’t want to talk about it, right?

Miriam Katz 13:13
Well, it goes in both directions, though, because if they were able to, then they would have less charge, and you know, it’s circular.

Kevin Anthony 13:21
Well, yeah, it can be right because they have the charge. They won’t talk about it because they won’t talk about it. They still have to hold on to the charge and so forth. Yeah. Of course, I want to talk about, you know, some of the specific ones that you’ve interviewed so far, or if you want to preview any that are coming up. But before we do that, I want to get into a little bit of, you know, the typical advice when it comes to X’s, right? Because the approach that you took and the way that you know I have always approached X’s is very different than what most people would do. So I have four things here that are kind of standard pieces of advice. Let’s just talk about each one of them, and I’m just curious what your opinion is, right? So, like, cliché number one is: this person is your ex; fuck them.

Miriam Katz 14:14
Yes, definitely. That is the exact phrase.

Kevin Anthony 14:17
Yeah, and not in the sexual sense, as in like

Miriam Katz 14:22
Fuck my ex, yeah.

Kevin Anthony 14:24
Screw this person, they’re dead to me. I’m never talking to them again.

Miriam Katz 14:29
Like, yeah, I have really never felt that way, and I have a really good friend who’s an ex, and as you said, I, I mean, I have a relationship certainly with his partner now, but a very close relationship with his daughter, and it feels the same as if it were an old friend. We dated from 2000 to 2004 to 2009, so for a long time. But that is a long time ago, and our relationship feels completely different. We are cellularly; we have. Overturned, and it’s a very different thing. It’s a very beautiful relationship, and yeah, I have a lot of examples of that. I think if someone abused you in a particular way, there are certainly cases where I’d agree you don’t need to keep on talking to that person. But overall, if you didn’t make sense as partners, if you stop feeling in love, if you weren’t sexually compatible, that doesn’t mean that you want to throw away all of that.

Miriam Katz 15:30
And in fact, I really love memories of people that I used to be with, and bringing those up now as friends. Yeah, to me, it feels the same as people who I’ve been friends with for a really long time, and it’s even closer because you usually have met their families, you’ve taken trips with them, you have these very intimate memories with them, but I think it is possible, and you can turn it into something else. And I find it feels really right to not just lop off that entire experience, but to leave space. I usually wait a long time after I break up with someone to be able to talk to them again. In that case, I didn’t talk to that person for a year. I’d say for about a year. Truly, no talking, no texting, nothing. And then, once I feel differently and don’t want to grab them and kiss them anymore, I’ll see what it’s like.

Kevin Anthony 16:26
Yeah, you know, this whole idea of, like, oh, you know, screw them, like, all right, excluding what you said, right, which is you were in an abusive relationship, maybe, or, you know, there’s something where it’s really not healthy or safe. Excluding that, you know, yeah, you can be angry with somebody. You can realize that maybe they did some things that weren’t really cool. But at the same time, if you’re really honest with yourself, you’ll probably realize you did some things that weren’t all that cool. You got wrapped up in it too, and like also, and this usually only happens a few years down the road, hopefully.

Kevin Anthony 17:07
But you can also hopefully look back and realize that, like, where the two of you were at in that moment, like where you were at as far as your spiritual development, your psychological development, your emotional development, as you know, and look back and go, “Wow, I can see why it got so out of hand as it did because you know he was this and I was that, or whatever. Like when you can have that perspective, right? Then you can kind of let go of a lot of that baggage where you just have that anger towards them, where you’re just like, “Fuck them, right? You know,

Miriam Katz 17:41
And I don’t even think I usually get to the point of fuck that person, though, in a relationship itself. I think that’s ideal if a breakup is not screaming, if a breakup is sad, and there’s some elegy in it. But I, yes, I mean I’ve certainly fought with partners, but I feel like the end ideally is not a screaming match. So I think even this attitude that you and I share, I think probably starts earlier. It starts in the relationship, and yes, you get way more perspective later. But even during it, if we’re having an argument, we are both involved with that. If this is a difficult relationship. I did choose this person. I was attracted to this person for a reason, drawn to this person. So yes, I think there’s generally, if you believe you are implicated in the relationship on all levels, and….

Kevin Anthony 18:34
And you are.

Miriam Katz 18:35
You are, then later you can understand that they are not a villain, and in fact, I’d say this is so broad, but almost no one is a villain, and we all are capable of bad behavior.

Kevin Anthony 18:50
Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with your point. Also, you know, you shouldn’t even get in the relationship to the point where you’re like, you know, fuck this person, fuck this relationship. Like, you shouldn’t really ever be at that point because you should have enough emotional maturity to be able to work through these things, talk through these things, even if that means saying We recognize we’re not compatible, and you know this isn’t the right relationship for us. But it shouldn’t ever get to that level to begin with. So,

Miriam Katz 19:23
Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 19:24
If you don’t get there to begin with, then it’s a whole lot easier to not be holding on to that later on because you never had it to begin with.

Miriam Katz 19:31
Well, I want you to be able to get to your next one, but I was listening to, I think, your most recent episode with Dr. Jillian. What’s her last name?

Kevin Anthony 19:40
Yeah, I’m drawing a blank on her last name at the moment.

Miriam Katz 19:44
Insert here, and her talking about being drawn to certain. It was a great episode. Everybody, listen to that one if you haven’t. And her being drawn to, yeah, people being drawn to the toxic. I think this that relates here. So even if it is a toxic situation like the episode I was talking about, where it was very difficult, I hung out with that person for six years. What was what was why why was I drawn to that? Why did that toxicity do something for me? Why did I like that poison?

Kevin Anthony 20:17
Yeah, but you know, to do that, that requires a level of introspection that a lot of people don’t really have, unfortunately. Like you have to be able to sit down and ask yourself those really difficult questions, right? Why? Why was I attracted to that? Why did I stay so long? Why did I react the way I did in that relationship when I don’t normally react that way, right? Like you need to be able to ask yourself all of those questions. And by the way, Jillian O’Shea Brown is her name.

Miriam Katz 20:48
See, that was so interesting.

Kevin Anthony 20:51
I thought it was a great episode too. I really liked it, and a couple of the little clips I posted on social media have been stirring some people’s emotions a little bit, yeah.

Miriam Katz 21:02
And to think about your caregivers and how they affect who you choose-that is really deep stuff.

Kevin Anthony 21:08
Yeah, I got one guy on TikTok who I just saw it this morning. Wrote like this giant book, just screaming at me about how this is complete BS. What she was saying, and I was just like, “Oh boy, you were…..

Miriam Katz 21:21
Affected by this content.

Kevin Anthony 21:24
Yes, you were. Okay, so that was the first sort of cliché or piece of standard advice. The second one, and this is the one you’ll hear pretty much from everybody all the time, is: you break up with somebody, don’t talk to them. What do you think about that?

Miriam Katz 21:42
I agree with that, actually, for a certain amount of time because if you break up with someone and see them the next week, you’re gonna want to have sex with them, and it’s gonna be confusing. So I think for me personally, it’s different for each person, but it might be just a certain number of months, or it might be a year, but I feel it in my body when I’m ready again to talk to somebody and consider being friends with somebody if I like them and want to keep hanging out. But I don’t agree with it overall, and there are certain people that I’m not exactly friends with. But as you said, we follow each other on social media. Maybe every once in a while, at a wedding or something, I’ll see them, and it’ll feel really nice just to have a positive exchange, even if I don’t spend time with them one-on-one very much or at all. So I agree with it initially, but globally, I don’t. I think it feels really good, and it feels really nice not to cut anything off from your life.

Kevin Anthony 22:47
Yeah, you know, I think that it’s only good advice, like you said, insofar as you need time to heal from it, right? So that time can vary dramatically from person to person, relationship to relationship, but I think the way I would phrase it, if I were, you know, coaching somebody on this, rather than saying Don’t talk to them, don’t talk to them next, don’t talk, I would say Set clear boundaries with them, right?

Kevin Anthony 23:19
Because there may still be a few logistical things along the way that you might have to communicate with this person about, depending on how long you were together, how intertwined your lives were, that sort of thing. I would say just set clear boundaries that give you the space that you need to let go of any attachments that you have, right? To move through whatever process you need to move through, and then once you feel like you’ve been able to do that, you know, then you can re-engage. But I think a lot of people get really caught up in this sort of black and white of it. It’s like X, don’t talk. That’s it. You’re dead to me.

Miriam Katz 23:54
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think you should also set clear boundaries with yourself. It’s one thing to say to the person, “We’re not going to sleep together. But decide what it is. If you are asking someone to hang out because you actually want to be with them, be upfront with that person about that, and be honest with yourself if that’s what’s happening, and don’t make it a confusing, blurry thing because that’s not going to be a fruitful exchange. But if you know you’re completely over it, and you have the sense that they are, great. Have coffee, please.

Kevin Anthony 24:28
Exactly. All right. What about the next one, which is block them?

Miriam Katz 24:35
I really don’t like the idea of blocking anyone, yeah. I’m just not a blocker. Again, if it’s a safety or abuse issue- if somebody sends me something, a stranger sends me something, you know, abusive online, and I don’t know them- then yes. But in general, yeah, I’m really not a blocker at all.

Kevin Anthony 25:02
Yeah, I’m not a big fan of blocking unless there, again, like we were saying, there’s something, you know, unhealthy or dangerous about that person, or let’s say there have been circumstances where, you know, you’ve set clear boundaries and the other person will not, you know, abide by those boundaries that you’ve set. So they keep reaching out. They keep commenting on everything that you do. Right? They keep, you know, in situations like that. It may be necessary, but generally speaking, and the reason why we’re talking about it is that people, of course, would say, well, yeah, in those situations, of course, block them. But what I’ve seen a lot is, you know, we’ve broken up, so there’s just this default automatic. I have to block them.

Miriam Katz 25:45
Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 25:46
And I said no.

Miriam Katz 25:47
And if you want to mute someone because you don’t want to see them on social media, that totally makes sense to me. There’s somebody I dated. He’s the first episode of the podcast, and I said I do want to be friends with you, but I need to think of you differently, so I, I really don’t want to talk. And a couple of months later, he texted me something, and I said it again. And maybe five months later, I said it again very clearly. And then he got the message. And then eight months later, I felt differently. And now we are very good friends. We vacation together. You know, we’re such good friends, and so if I had just blocked him, then that would have. I think I just needed to explain it to him very clearly, and then he finally understood, and now we can be friends. I just yeah, one strike feels like too too simple. In general, use the term black and white. I do not have black and white thinking about exes.

Kevin Anthony 26:46
That’s good, and you know, that’s the thing too. Is like you mentioned. Well, okay, if you don’t want to be seeing them, because this is something you’ll hear a lot from people when they’ve gone through a breakup. They’re like, you know, the algorithms knew at least that we were together, and so they tend to show us each other’s stuff more often because in the past we were liking it and commenting on it and all that stuff, and now we keep seeing it, and we don’t want to see it. So everyone’s like, “Block, just block. Go ahead and block them. You don’t want, you know. And it’s like you can, in most of these, just simply go in there and say, “Don’t show this to me anymore. You don’t have to block them completely. Yeah. Right. You don’t have to unfriend them, remove them from your life, right? Unless, of course, they’re breaking boundaries, but

Miriam Katz 27:28
Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 27:28
You can just simply say, “Don’t show this to me anymore. Unfollow this person, right? But you’re still connected as friends, depending on what platform you’re on.

Miriam Katz 27:36
And you can even let them know that.

Kevin Anthony 27:39
Yeah, absolutely.

Miriam Katz 27:40
I mean, obviously, all these depend on the situations, but I could imagine a world of saying, “This is a lot, so I’m going to mute you for a while while we’re not talking, so there’s no confusion. Yeah, I mean, yeah, just say stuff.

Kevin Anthony 27:52
But again, you know, as we’re talking these things through, what it’s showing is somebody who has enough emotional maturity to be able to pause for a moment and not make reactive decisions, right? Because the fuck them, don’t talk to them ever, block them- those are all reactive decisions, right? Where somebody’s just like lashing out because they feel hurt and making sort of rash decisions, rather than somebody who’s taking a step back, taking a couple deep breaths, and going, “Okay, I know every time I see them, I feel this emotional zing. It’s not making me feel good. It’s not helping me get over them. Okay, why don’t I just go and say, like, unfollow or don’t show me this, or mute this person for X number of days. Like, the platforms all have some feature like that, right? Like, that takes a little bit more.

Miriam Katz 28:49
Yes, there is this maturity, but I’ll also say there is a wildness to this way too. It sounds like, again, black and white. There’s the toxic way, and that’s sort of exciting, and then the serious, mature way is different. I think there’s a wildness; the same way there are open relationships and then there’s monogamous relationships. There’s a wildness to being monogamous. I think there’s a wildness to the honest way too. Yeah, I don’t think it’s just dull. I think it’s extremely exciting to be able to say honestly and with vulnerability, I’m going to mute you for a while because it hurts a lot, and I care about you. But let’s not talk for a while. There’s something. There are dopamine hits in that too.

Kevin Anthony 29:37
You know, you just said something that is not a question on my list, but I wanted to ask you about it because you’ve mentioned it twice now in the show, and that is this idea of having been in open or poly relationships before. How has that influenced how you approach breakups?

Miriam Katz 29:58
Oh. So interesting, great question. Well, I think now I am not in open relationships, but I was for many years. I’d say about 20, and I would never quite call myself Polly. It was sort of a don’t ask, don’t tell version. Yeah, and a lot of the time I was with someone in a sort of lighter way, and then we had the freedom to do what we wanted when we weren’t hanging out, but we wouldn’t talk about it, so it wasn’t a sort of classic ethical no-man’s-land situation. But I will say, I am really not a jealous person, and so I think that could make it easier for me to have this kind of perspective on exes, because the idea that they’re with someone else makes all the sense in the world to me. They’re with someone else before they’re going to be with someone else after.

Miriam Katz 30:57
Maybe even while I’m with them, they’re with someone to me that makes as much sense as them going to see a bunch of music shows, comedy shows, you know, living a life, trying different things, and I really do have that thing. There’s a really great word for, oh, compersion. Compersion, yeah, that’s the word. Really, like when people are happy, so I think that there is a relation, and it’s the same impulse in you. You go do your thing, enjoy yourself, live your life, and get a lot of love.

Kevin Anthony 31:30
You know, there’s still, of course, to this day, a ton of debate over what the best relationship style is. Is it monogamy? Is it polyamory? Is it who knows all the other variations in between there, and there is no actual answer to that. One isn’t better than the other. It’s what works for you and your partner. But the reason I was asking that question was that if we’re going to compare Polly and, you know, Mono, as they call it, the one advantage that Polly has is that it forces you to learn better skills. Because if you don’t, the whole thing blows up in your face so fast and so badly that it’s really not good, right?

Kevin Anthony 32:19
And so, if you’re going to manage multiple relationships and all the interactions between multiple people, even if you’re not all necessarily communicating together, it takes a fairly high level of communication and emotional maturity. There are skill sets in there that, if you don’t have them, it’s not going to go well, and it’s going to blow up. Whereas, in monogamous relationships, yes, you should have those same skill sets if you want to have a really successful monogamous relationship. But you can get away with a whole lot more because you’re only managing one relationship. It’s just less complicated altogether, right? And you see this with people. You see them go years in these monogamous relationships that are dysfunctional, but they don’t really blow up and disintegrate as poly relationships tend to when you don’t have those skills.

Kevin Anthony 33:13
And so, I guess kind of what I wanted to point out by asking that question was that I’m not saying everybody should go be poly. I’m not even saying you should necessarily try it, but if you have tried it, or if you’ve spent any time in that world, you’ve probably learned skills, right, that are helping you in all of your other relationships. And I also want people in monogamous relationships to know that even if you have no intention of ever being in a poly relationship, you still have to learn the skills.

Miriam Katz 33:46
Yeah, yeah, and it can be that you feel really comfortable with your partner spending the night with friends out, or being really devoted to their art practice, and that you allow them to fully independently have another love,

Kevin Anthony 34:03
Yeah.

Miriam Katz 34:04
Even if they’re not having sex with that thing.

Kevin Anthony 34:06
Absolutely, and that’s, you know that is one of the things that Polly can teach you. And again, I’m not trying to advocate that everybody should go out and be Polly. I’m not in a Polly relationship and haven’t been in one in many years, much like yourself. So, I have been there, and I understand it. And I just think that, you know, as you said, if you’re in that sort of a relationship, you have to learn how to be okay with your partner spending time with other people. Otherwise, it will eat you alive from the inside out, and it will destroy you, so you can’t function in that relationship unless you find a way to come to terms with that and be okay with it.

Kevin Anthony 34:46
So on the mono side, right, it could be somebody’s art; it could be their work; it could even be their friends, right. So it’s a similar skill where you have to not just tolerate it; you have to be okay. With it, like, yeah, I’m actually glad. I’m happy. I feel compersion when they’re in their music room creating, or when they’re writing their comedy bits, right? And even though they’ve been in there for five hours, and I wish they would come spend time with me, I’m happy because they’re happy, and that’s something that they love to do. So those skills do cross over. All right, I got one last piece of advice. Then I need to take a short break, and then I want to come back and talk about some of the really fun stuff from this project that you’ve been doing. The last one is: don’t talk about them to your current partners. So don’t talk about your exes with your current partners. How have you managed that one?

Miriam Katz 35:43
Interesting. You know, my current boyfriend does not listen to my podcast. It would be such a download. It would be so much information, and I never would have given him all of that information. I will bring things up if it’s something I’m grappling with, and I had a boyfriend, as you did. Did your wife die? Sorry to ask it like that. Your wife died, or your girlfriend?

Kevin Anthony 36:15
Wife, yes.

Miriam Katz 36:15
Wife. So I had a boyfriend for two years, and he died, and that is something I will talk to my current partner about. It’s something that’s still a big part of my life, and yeah, he’s still a big part of my life-the dead boyfriend. And but I’d say in general, I don’t particularly-not because I’m hiding it, but let me think why. Because all these other myths-it’s been like myth, myth, sitcom. You know, this is a cliché, but there is-if it’s vital to the conversation, if it’s a pattern, if I’ve been like this before, maybe. But generally speaking, I don’t-I don’t know. What is your opinion about that?

Kevin Anthony 36:59
I do have a very strong opinion about that, and I’ll say it like this: I think that you should, whatever current relationship you’re in, I think it should be at a level where you can talk about these things, right? So you should be able to have conversations with your current partner about past partners if you need to, right? In other words, if it’s triggering, if you just can’t go there, if the other person’s like, I don’t want to hear it, like that’s potentially a problem. So you should have a relationship where you can talk about these things if you need to talk about them. That’s kind of the the first piece of it, and then, you know, from there on out, it’s about a balance, right?

Kevin Anthony 37:39
So, like, I think early on in a relationship, when you’re getting to know somebody, it’s a time when you can talk about those things more often, right? Because you’re basically getting to know this person. And like, if I were dating somebody, and you know, especially now at this age in my life, like, okay, why are you still single, right? Like, and there’s no shame in that, but just like tell me your story, like where are you at? What have you been through? Like, because all that’s going to help me to get to know you better. So in the early days of a relationship, I think you should be talking more about that because you get to talk about past relationships and what worked for you, what didn’t work for you, what you liked, what you didn’t like, you know, and and that that sort of thing.

Kevin Anthony 38:24
Once you get to know somebody and you kind of know their past, and you’ve been in a relationship for a while, then I think it’s a little bit more of a balance. Like if it happens to be relevant to a situation, and you know you should feel okay bringing it up, but also it’s not something that you want to be doing all of the time, and here’s the big one. Here’s the big, giant piece of advice: Do not compare your current partner to your past partners. Never do the comparison thing. That will drive your partner insane, especially if your past partner was somebody who was really amazing, because your current partner will always feel like they’re never good enough, and you don’t want that in your relationship. So you don’t want to do the comparison game.

Miriam Katz 39:11
Well, you know, I would say, even in a positive way, you know, maybe occasionally, but you’re so much more mature than her or whatever. I think, yeah, any kind of comparison could be a problem later, right?

Kevin Anthony 39:21
But at the same time, like down the road, you know, something comes up, and you know it’s relevant to the situation. It’s okay to share here and there. It shouldn’t be like a no-go zone. It shouldn’t be an off-limits thing. You shouldn’t get triggered when your partner brings up an act, and you shouldn’t be constantly talking about it because what does your partner really want? Your partner wants to know that you’re 100% present with them, that they’re the number one most important person in your life. And so, if you’re constantly talking about an ex, what does that indicate? In any case, you haven’t let go yet. It indicates you still have a bunch of stuff there, and you’re not giving as much of your energy and attention to your current. Partner as you could be now.

Kevin Anthony 40:02
I will say that, for me personally, this has been a big challenge for me because, you know, having been together with my wife for a long time, having had, you know, this basically like a storybook relationship, you know, with somebody that I felt was my absolute most compatible human I’ve ever met, right? Now she’s gone, and I’m out there dating. Like, it is so hard, or at least it was in the beginning, not to compare everybody else, right, to her. So it was an extra challenge for me, and I had to remind myself, like, everybody is different. Everybody is their own unique person. Everybody’s going to show up in their own way, and it’s not good to compare them, right?

Kevin Anthony 40:48
So rather than looking at and going, “Well, she was this, and you’re that, right? It’s like, let’s see who you are and focus on who you are and what you bring, rather than trying to compare it to something that was in the past. So that has been an extra special challenge for me. But generally speaking, I would say just don’t compare. Just create an environment that’s open enough, where in relevant situations where it makes sense, you’re both capable of talking about it in a calm, emotional way, where it’s not causing any conflict in the relationship.

Miriam Katz 41:23
I will also add that when I was dating a lot four or five years ago, a lot of men would complain about their recent divorces and complain about their recent ex on the first date, a bunch. This is a huge no-no on second dates with any of those people, and I get that it’s what’s going on in your life. Talk about pickleball. Talk about anything else.

Kevin Anthony 41:53
Hold on a second. Please say that one more time. Repeat that part. You didn’t what?

Miriam Katz 42:01
Feed me the line, and I’ll say what I.

Kevin Anthony 42:03
You didn’t go on a second date with any of them.

Miriam Katz 42:06
Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

Kevin Anthony 42:08
Right, and guys, I want you to hear this because this is a huge complaint I hear from women. This is a major red flag for them. If you go out on a date with somebody and you spend half the date complaining about your ex, I don’t care how pissed off you are at them. This woman is going to run in the other direction because she’s already projecting out into the future. I’m going to be the next one he’s bitching and complaining about.

Miriam Katz 42:32
Yeah, and he can’t control himself. He’s still so overwhelmed by this. He’s not ready.

Kevin Anthony 42:38
Yep. Okay, man. We got so much more to talk about. Let me take a quick break, and then we’ve got to come back and talk about some of the fun stuff. All right, if your relationship feels disconnected, if your sex life has lost its spark, or if you just know something needs to change, then relationship and intimacy coaching can help. I have created transformational coaching programs for men, women, and couples, all designed to help you create deeper intimacy, better communication, and the kind of passionate relationship you actually want. Whether you’re struggling with intimacy, confidence, desire, emotional connection, or recurring relationship challenges, you don’t have to figure it out alone. The best place to start is with a free strategy call, where we’ll talk through your challenges, get clarity on what’s really going on, and create a personalized plan for moving forward. Go to kevinanthonycoaching.com today to book your free strategy call. That is kevinanthonycoaching.com.

Kevin Anthony 43:33
Okay, so I know you’ve got some really fun stories that you have shared on the show. I wrote a couple of notes down about, you know, a sex addict, a stripper, a terminally ill person, a rabbi. Like, share some of these fun stories of exes that you have interviewed, and tell us a little, like, how did it go? Was this person receptive to it? Did you feel like you got any sort of closure from it? Like, tell us a little bit about some of them.

Miriam Katz 44:02
Yeah, one that comes to mind hasn’t come out yet, so I’m teasing. But it was somebody who did not want to be friends with me after we broke up. So it’s very relevant to this conversation, and it was really heartbreaking. I dated him in the early 2000s. We were in our early 20s, and I couldn’t understand it. And those first few years, it was really painful. But even how many years ago is that? I mean, that is more than 20 years ago. 30. I mean, you know, it’s a long time ago. More than 20 years ago, and I never understood it, and it always hurt a lot. And every once in a while, I would reach out, and he didn’t want to deal with it. And so I always thought he really disliked me, and I also assumed he would not go on the podcast.

Miriam Katz 44:56
So, in the first season, I didn’t ask him because I didn’t want to. It was such a project, and I wanted to boost myself. I said, “Okay, I’m going to wait. And then, second season, the first season went super well. I got all these great people. I felt like I could handle the rejection, and he said yes. And as it turned out, he’d been. I knew that he was abusing drugs and alcohol. We were in our early 20s, and I was also drinking a ton. It was kind of just the way that it was in New York then, and he didn’t want me to see him like that. Things got worse, and this whole time I thought he hated me. More complicated than that, but I had all these stories in my mind, and then he thought that I really thought he was this awful person, and he was embarrassed, and so we had this truly healing.

Miriam Katz 45:55
Both of us had these other ideas of how the other thought of us, and then we could rethink that whole thing, and I had this conversation I’d been aching to have with him since we broke up, and it felt so good. So yeah, that’s not. I’m happy to tell the funny stories, but that was the first one that came up that feels related to everything we’re talking about. How good it felt to reconnect with the next, and I don’t. If it doesn’t make sense for his life. I don’t need to be his best friend now, but it just feels so nice that we were able to, before we died, have a conversation like that.

Kevin Anthony 46:30
Yeah, I mean, what’s really cool and interesting about that is that you had this whole story about how he was feeling about you that turned out to be completely untrue, and I think that’s one of the interesting things, right? Because you know we talked a little bit earlier about, you know, how you don’t necessarily need to have a person in your life in order to create closure and heal and move on, but that it’s easier, right? And so this is a good example of that because if he wasn’t around anymore, let’s say he OD’d because of his addictions, right? You would have to come to terms with the fact that he, you know, basically hated you and never wanted to talk to you, and you could do that, and you could move on from it. But now you don’t have to do that because it turns out that was never even true, and you wouldn’t have known that had you not been able to actually have a conversation with him.

Miriam Katz 47:24
And look, that’s such a great example. But even if it were true, even if he hated me, it would be very helpful for me to know why. Because I had always wondered. It didn’t make sense to me. We had this really beautiful relationship that devolved mostly because he was on stuff. But yeah, I just didn’t understand it. So even if it does still turn out to be the scary thing, the truth is better than the confusion. That is, that could be the long line of the podcast. It’s not quite as sexy, but yeah, version.

Kevin Anthony 47:53
Well, rather that comes back to the the famous saying: “The truth shall set you free.

Miriam Katz 47:57
Oh my God! But truly, truly, truly, even if it’s something that’s unpleasant, it’s better to know than to wonder, because those loops will take your energy.

Kevin Anthony 48:06
Oh, absolutely, they will.

Miriam Katz 48:08
Yeah, and you should put that energy into sign creative. Better use of your energy. Okay, so then fun stories. I was in Montreal giving a talk at a conference, and Montreal is most known for strip clubs, and I went with a work colleague. I was giving a talk about art and comedy, and I just, yeah, I thought I’m going to go see this performance, and really didn’t think about it. I hadn’t gone to a lot of strip clubs before, and I saw this really beautiful and also really compelling, charismatic dancer, and I got a lap dance with her, and it was a private booth. And she took off my clothes, and we ended up hooking up, and we did, and we hooked up for five songs. And she said, “I’m not charging you. It was super, super, super sexy, just an incredible experience.

Miriam Katz 49:04
And to me, because she was in this world, I assume that just happens sometimes, and it was totally not a big deal to her. And I did find her and thought that she would barely remember it, which would be fine. I mean, sometimes I remember things more than people do. That’s no problem. So I really thought it was just going to be me telling her the experience, but she really remembered it. She had told lots of people about that story. It was a really hot story to her, and she remembered what I was wearing. And she, as it turned out, did have a sense of her charisma and how cool she was. Super funny, super smart, and also really saw stripping and sex work as healing, and getting people back into their sexuality, getting them to feel confident, sexy, attractive, lifting their spirits, waking up their energy, really beautiful. And she talked about how somebody who’s an Much older man whose wife had just died came in, and he asked if he could pretend that she was his dead wife, and that she looked like his dead wife when she was younger.

Miriam Katz 50:12
And so they just sat, and he told her he loved her, and they did this role-play. So it was so interesting that I was attracted to a person, and then, as it turned out, this was really special. Could have been anyone. I could have just been physically attracted to her. But there is a magic in who you’re attracted to, and sometimes you just have an instinct. There were many beautiful women stripping. It was a Montreal strip club, but that was who I was drawn to, and that sometimes, as I said earlier in the conversation, you hit a new level because you have a relationship with someone, or even just a hookup with a person, and yeah, that sometimes who you are, who you feel compelled by, has Meaning,

Kevin Anthony 51:02
Especially if you are listening to the fact that these things have meaning. Yeah, but you know that’s another great example of, like, in your mind you were like She probably does this all the time with so many women or men or whatever, and like She’s not even going to remember who I am. And it turns out it was actually a unique moment for her as well, and one that she’s remembered all these years later.

Miriam Katz 51:27
Yeah, really fun to hear those things. Yeah, big or small, you know, I went on a- I talked to my first date ever in the fifth grade, and we didn’t really talk before, during, or after that date. I think during that date, we probably talked about pizza. We did. I thought boys were different than girls when I went on the date with him, so I just didn’t know how to talk to him, even though I could talk to any girl in my class. And he said that I asked him out while he was on the swings, which was a detail I didn’t remember. I knew I asked him out, but it’s such an innocent, sweet detail. Also, I didn’t really know him, and it turned out he was very cool. Also, and that’s fun to know, I had some kind of instinctual good taste. But either a major thing, like someone telling me they didn’t hate me, or even just a small detail to reopen and spark that memory feels really good.

Kevin Anthony 52:20
Well, you know, and that’s something that’s interesting too. Is that we never really know the impact that we have on people, right? And so, even if a relationship didn’t work out well, even if you ended up not talking to each other, like, if you’re really honest and sit back and, you know, look at past relationships, you’ll generally find that they all had some sort of at least somewhat positive or even potentially profound, you know, effect on you and your path going forward from that point on.

Miriam Katz 52:57
Oh yeah, there have definitely been people who have affected my creative life in a huge way, which is something that’s a really big deal to me. And somebody I interviewed for this season was much, much younger than me. It was almost ridiculous. And he, first of all, I complimented his nose, and it really affected him in a positive way. And then also, he said that I was the first person he ever spent time with who was really sex positive. I don’t particularly think of. I mean, I definitely am, but that’s a term that didn’t exist, you know, when I first started having sex. But anyway, that was a really cool thing to find out. It was a fleeting thing. It was a very light thing between us. But he was younger, and I think when you’re younger, things affect you more, and that’s such a beautiful takeaway.

Kevin Anthony 53:46
So, how how many years in between were there?

Miriam Katz 53:50
20. I was 40, and he was 20.

Kevin Anthony 53:52
All right. I mean, it’s a big age gap, no matter what, but it’s only really big, only because 20 is still pretty young. Pretty young. Tony’s pretty young. Yeah. If he was 30 and 50, that 20-year age gap is not as big as that. Absolutely. No. No. Yes. Yes. No.

Miriam Katz 54:08
It was Consent City, but it was very. That’s a ridiculous age gap.

Kevin Anthony 54:12
Well, let me just tell you. He may have been happy about whatever comment you made about his nose, but more so than that, he will forever be telling the story about the 40-year-old woman who taught him some shit. Trust me. Trust me. That is going down in his hall of fame. He’s got it on the wall somewhere. Yeah, dude. He’s the envy of all his 20-year-old friends. By the way,

Miriam Katz 54:39
I mean he’s not 20 anymore, but yeah.

Kevin Anthony 54:42
Well, he was, at the time, the envy of all his 20-something-year-old friends, male friends, by the way. His female friends were probably like, “Oh. All right, we got time for just a little bit more. Any other stories? That maybe had a profound impact on you, or maybe are just profoundly entertaining. I don’t know.

Miriam Katz 55:07
Well, you mentioned that there was a rabbi- not only a rabbi, but an Orthodox rabbi. He is now an Orthodox rabbi. When we hung out, we were 19, and he was figuring out that when you’re Orthodox, you’re not supposed to touch women, and he was figuring out what he was doing in that area because Modern Orthodox is complicated. You get to exist in modern life, but also adhere to these traditions. And we were dating. We’d go on dates. We would study the tour together. I would dress. I would cover my elbows and my knees. I was fully cosplaying. I am such an actress, and we really, really liked each other. There’s a lot of emotion, a lot of laughing, a big intellectual connection, and I was so drawn to him.

Miriam Katz 56:00
And the final night we hung out, because I was-he was going back to Israel to study to be a rabbi, and I was going back to New York, where I was in school, and I-we held hands, and it was the first time we held hands, and it was so-I still feel-I remember where we were in Boston. It was so electric, and I tried to kiss him, and he said he couldn’t. And we talked about this on the podcast. He first of all regrets that he said I should have just let the kiss happen. Why didn’t I let the kiss happen? Which is, you know, a saucy thing for an Orthodox rabbi to say. And also, and first of all, he was super flirty the whole interview. It was so fun. You look great. But also, what I said is, I still remember yearning to kiss you. I remember that energy so much. And maybe if it had happened, yes, maybe I would remember the kiss.

Miriam Katz 56:56
But it’s a stronger memory because I didn’t fulfill it. And so I like that there’s this big range in the podcast. Sometimes you have sex with somebody the first time that you meet them, and then sometimes you never even kiss them, and that longing becomes the memory. Do you ever watch High Maintenance, that TV show? It’s a really good show. It was on HBO for, I think, five or six seasons about a weed dealer, and every episode was split into two. And there’s one episode called Trick, and one is about a prostitute, and it’s a one-night stand, and then the other half is about a guy who’s asexual having a relationship with a woman who’s an intimacy coordinator, but it’s basically about the people who actually have penetrative sex. There’s no intimacy, and then this beautiful love story between two people that don’t even touch. So there are all sorts of ways to be connected and intimate, and I do like having some of these innocent stories intermingled with the the stripper and the sex addict and all that.

Kevin Anthony 58:11
Yeah, well, and it shows a range, right? So, because otherwise, somebody could potentially get the idea that, ah, she’s just a, you know, a woman with a high sex drive who’s just, you know, going around screwing everybody, and of course she’s got a bunch of stories. But you know that’s obviously not the case. What I hope people would see from you, you know, either telling your stories or listening to your podcast, is a human life and its ups and downs, and the things that worked, and the things that didn’t work, and the things you tried, and the things that, you know, all of that, right? Like, this is the range of a human experience, everything from barely holding hands with a rabbi to hooking up with a stripper in a sex club, and everything in between, right? I mean, that’s often life for a lot of people, which is real, which is what I prefer. I want to hear real.

Miriam Katz 59:08
Yeah, I love real, and and it’s curiosity. It’s also I was really interested in how different people lived.

Kevin Anthony 59:16
Yeah.

Miriam Katz 59:17
Ihave a lot of larger-than-life characters: a cult leader, A professional, well-known clown, a famous comedian. I think I did that for a long time, and that also shifted. I think that is not necessarily toxic, but there’s a little bit of hero worship, and I’m less interested in that and more interested in equality. So it’s also the story of how I’ve changed in relationships.

Kevin Anthony 59:46
I wonder how many people know the names of actual professional clowns. I was trying to think of myself. Like, do I know an actual clown? Like, okay, I can think of one. I can think of one. Yo, Kevin, move to Los Angeles. You will have so many clown friends inadvertently. It will just happen. It is a big part of the world here. Experimental clown, I should say. Hmm. All right. I gotta ask you. Did he wear the red nose?

Miriam Katz 1:00:17
No. No. No. Okay. All right, good.

Kevin Anthony 1:00:23
All right, we’ve got to bring this thing in for landing because we’re actually already out of time. But I want to make sure that we wrap this up, and I want to know, because we’ve talked about it throughout, but we haven’t really come out and really said it yet very clearly, and that is, you’ve talked to all of these exes. You have talked about, you know, I guess what worked, what didn’t work, past stuff, all that. What have you learned as a result of doing all this? Like, if you could sort of distill it down to, like, what have been the biggest takeaways from this project?

Miriam Katz 1:01:02
I don’t know what’s going to come out of my mouth. I am much more sensitive than I thought, and I think everyone is more sensitive than I thought. People who acted cool or icy when we dated, are felt a lot during it, and are now, in older years, sharing that honestly. And people remember a lot more than I would have thought. I would have thought I cared more, and yeah, I think people are sensitive, so you might as well admit your sensitivity, and a lot happens when you admit your sensitivity. You can really connect, and you can get over certain things if you just say it and don’t try to be tough.

Kevin Anthony 1:01:52
Yeah, and of course, you excuse me. You also shared that you got a certain amount of closure out of a lot of these.

Miriam Katz 1:01:58
Oh yes, I’d say that’s another. Thank you. That’s another thing that I would say that I learned: it really is possible to feel done with something, and not done meaning I don’t want to talk to that person anymore. But closing the loop on a question or a story that was running through my head and taking up brain space, taking up heart space, and I do feel like I have a lot more space for loving my current partner, loving my work, loving my creative life, loving my comedy, and I want that. I want. I don’t want to be still obsessing over things, and I think people tend to be a bit obsessive, so it’s really nice to be able to finish. Yes, I’d say I believe closure is possible, and I even more than I did before really believe that conversations like this are very healthy. Every situation is specific; every person is specific. But if you have some inclination that this could be a good idea, sure, do it with every single person; go ahead. It’s not trademarked, but also, even if it’s maybe one, two, or three people that you want to reach out to and say some things that you never said, positive or negative, in a loving way. I really recommend it.

Kevin Anthony 1:03:18
Yeah, and you said you felt it was healthy. My next question was, you know, is there anything that you realized got healed through this process that you didn’t even know needed to be healed?

Miriam Katz 1:03:31
Oh, I mean, it’s so global. It’s so big. There’s such an overall feeling of healing, having the truth come out. I think I was healed from not knowing. I think I really needed to know certain things and hear certain things, and to feel respected by people. Even them coming is such a form of respect, and I think it feels really nice to honor the past, especially love. So I think there was a, yeah. I think maybe we need a big chunk of love, and I feel that I’ve received that, and that can be healing from childhood stuff too.

Kevin Anthony 1:04:26
Well, you know, I hope that people really took some things away from this process, and you know, I’m not saying everybody needs to go out and contact all of their exes and go through this process, but I hope we at least maybe open some minds to the fact that if you are holding on to some old stuff, this could potentially be a healing process for you and, you know, past partners, and you know, I think you very clearly demonstrated through multiple examples. That both you and some of the people that you talked to had very different ideas of what actually happened in the past, or what you or they thought like what you thought of them or what they thought of you, right? And so clearing all of that stuff out, I imagine, really is a pretty big load off of your shoulders, and most people probably don’t realize how much of that stuff they’re still carrying around.

Miriam Katz 1:05:27
Yeah, I mean, make the story more complicated.

Kevin Anthony 1:05:31
Make it a two-way story because your story is just rarefied. It’s too, yeah, make it alive, yeah. Like bringing someone else in. I mean, when I’m working with clients as a coach, and they’ve got some sort of, you know, pattern, whether it’s a relationship pattern or, you know, a sexual pattern or something like that. Of course, we always start with childhood. We poke around there a little bit, figure out what kind of patterns, you know, come from there. But after that, we go into significant relationships in a person’s life, and we almost always find something in there that is currently affecting their present relationship, whether it’s with themselves or with their partner, that comes from some of that stuff. So, you know, you can of course work through it with me, or you can potentially work through it on your own before you end up sitting down with me. Yeah, or you can do both, right?

Miriam Katz 1:06:28
Work with Kevin.

Kevin Anthony 1:06:29
Thank you. All right, I want to thank you, Miriam, for coming on the show and sharing, you know, your whole process and being so open about all of that.

Miriam Katz 1:06:41
Thank you for having me. I really love talking to you.

Kevin Anthony 1:06:45
It was a lot of fun as well, and I’m gonna have to go subscribe to your podcast because we didn’t even get into a lot of the little nitty-gritty details. So I want to hear more about some of these stories personally. I think that’ll be really fun and entertaining, especially since now we know each other. It’ll be a whole other level of interesting and fun. So, thank you again for coming on.

Miriam Katz 1:07:09
Thank you.

Kevin Anthony 1:07:10
All right, everybody, that’s all the time I have for this episode, and I will see you next week. I hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe, leave me a review, and share it with your friends. And for more free exclusive content, join me in the Passion vault@kevinanthanycoaching.com forward slash vault. That’s kevinanthonycoaching.com forward slash vault. Thanks for listening, and remember, as Celine used to say, “You’re amazing.”