The Science Of Female Pleasure With Pamela Madsen

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast a safe place to get real about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman single or a couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts, Kevin Anthony and Céline Remy and we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:28
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is Episode 258, and is titled The Science of female pleasure. I cannot think of a better topic than female pleasure. People might assume that since I’m a man, I would be more interested in men’s pleasure. But for me, that is absolutely not the case. I am far more interested in women’s pleasure, honestly, and men don’t get offended when I say this. But you know, men’s pleasures, it’s kind of simple and easy to understand. It’s not exactly rocket science. Yes, there are some important things you need to understand. But I find these, as we said science of female pleasure to be a much more fascinating topic. And as a man wanting to be able to show up for a woman, the best way that I can I think understanding that is really important.

So I think that if you’re a woman, and you’re listening to this episode today, you could really learn a lot about yourself. One thing I’ve always been amazed about is how many women don’t understand how their own bodies work. And if Céline were here today, she would tell you that as well, how many times she worked with women who have never even looked at their vagina in the mirror. And they’re 40 or 50 years old. So I think there’s going to be a lot of value here today for women on that end. And then men, I mean, if you want to show up as the best partner you can be, you should understand how they work physically, emotionally, all of that kind of stuff. So I think you can learn some stuff here today as well. So it’s going to be a great conversation. I will introduce my guests in just a minute.

But first, a short word from our sponsor. Do you want to join the secret club of men who are great in bed then check out Power and Mastery it is the most complete sexual mastery training for men. Whether you want to have harder erections, lasts longer, or increase your sexual skills. There was something for you at power and mastery.com. As you know, that is the men’s sexual mastery course that Céline And I created we get fantastic feedback about it. So if that sounds like something that you’re interested in, check it out at power and mastery.com.

Okay, so today’s guest Pamela, a certified sex somatic sex educator with a master’s degree in education has coached hundreds of women on their own personal journey back into their bodies, and their own expression of their divine feminine. Pamela is a veteran speaker, educator, and renowned blogger for The Huffington Post Psychology Today. The fertility advocate and care to She is the author of Shameless How I Ditched the Diet Got Naked, Found True Pleasure and Still Got Home in Time To Cook Dinner. Pamela has appeared on 60 Minutes Oprah, CNN, AARP primetime radio, Dr. Laura Berman show, the Jane Pratt show, and Playboy radio. And now today on the Love Lab podcast. So thank you, Pamela, for being here today.

Okay, so we’re going to talk about the science of female pleasure. And this is I think it’s going to be a really unique conversation, in a sense that you have just finished a study on this like, sort of first of its constantly which we are going to dive into throughout this show. I got lots of questions about that. But before we get started, I’m wondering if you could tell the listeners a little something about why I want to lay some foundation. So tell them a little bit about sort of your work and how you got into studying the science of this. So a little bit about your background and, and how you’ve come to be an expert really in this subject.

Pamela Madsen 4:16
Well, let’s first start with vocabulary. And it’s not unusual to hear female genitalia, referred to as the vagina. But that’s not the language we’re using. The language we’re using is Vulva, Vulva. So Vulva is the whole bits. All of our genitalia is the vulva and the vagina. Starts with the introit s which is the opening to the vagina, which you might want to call it the Love Canal, the birth canal, the place where we can accept penetration where we menstruate from so We’re really trying to get folks to understand the difference. So we’re going to be using the word Vulva unless we’re actually talking about penetration in the vagina. And you know, what’s really true, Kevin, is that we’re really behind when it comes to vocabulary, understanding, like, why don’t women know about their anatomy because it’s not taught. No one’s teaching men, here’s a really educated guy like you and you’re on the vagina, right? Because when I grew up, they called it the vagina, because it’s not accurate. But it’s what we were taught. I mean, we’re still fighting to get the clitoris in anatomy books for women. I mean, they have found in lost the g spot about 500 times.

And so why don’t women know? Well, because we don’t teach women. Why don’t we know? We’re internal. So men’s genitalia is, is a lot of your, your genitalia, as centers are external. To little hand motion there. There we go. I did the Wii. Now I’m doing the flip-flop. And we also know that a lot of male pleasure centers are also internal. And so, but physically to see you guys see each other all the time. Women don’t. Women don’t see the Vulva. Like other women’s Vulvas, you see lots of variations in men’s penises, from a very young age, and gyms and all that. We get naked. And basically, you get to see whether we have pubic hair or not. You know, you don’t see our internal sacred spaces. So women don’t have anything really to compare it to their own vulva. In the world of airbrushing and some male’s preferences on sexuality on what a female vulva should look like. images they see are often you know, played with for various magazines, whatever women and actually one of the largest surgeries for women is labiaplasty, where they’re cutting their inner lips, which is a horrible shame. Because they want to look aesthetically the way somebody decided their vulva can look. Let me tell you, ladies, out there with fuller inner labia, give your man something to suck on girls. You know, like, it’s kind of you know, and I also know that lots of women have small in the labia or no inner labia. But for your ladies who have full inner labia, no shame ladies. You’re giving you guys something to play with when he’s putting his mouth down there.

Kevin Anthony 8:03
And some of us love that. You know, Celine, my wife had full inner labia and I absolutely loved it. But I did hear stories from her when she was younger about how when she was very young, she felt embarrassed by that because men would make comments and it just blow my mind. I’m like, Are you kidding me? It’s amazing!

Pamela Madsen 8:21
Right? And, you know, you know the clitoris has different sizes in a labia have given sizes. And for men bigger was better. So why, why? Why wouldn’t we be like big inner labia big clit proud? And you know, that’s like, Okay, well, bigger is better for dudes like, all right, leave us alone. We’re not going to be smaller for some aesthetic that somebody’s created. So just a little word about an enemy and why we are so confused about it. Because of a lack of comparison, we have very little information.

Kevin Anthony 9:05
I agree with you on everything that you said like you’re you’re absolutely 100% on it. But I want to add also, I’ve noticed there seems to be a difference between men and women and how they approach their genitals for instance, young boys are all about their penis, they’re looking at it constantly. They’re like pulling up on their scrotum. They’re checking everything out, they’d like we as guys know every millimeter of our genitals from the time were young boys. And this might just be my observation. But, you know, just having talked with my wife and how many women she had worked with, it seems that women maybe aren’t doing that as much because they haven’t explored it as much. Like I said, I’ve had her tell me many times, she just worked with this new client. And, you know, she was exploring and she’s like, Oh my God, I’ve never seen it like that. And I’ve never I didn’t know that and there seems to be some difference between the amount of exploration that young men versus young women.

Pamela Madsen 10:01
As I already said, we don’t have a lot to compare it to. It’s, it’s more work for us to go down there. And then take a look. I mean, that involves an entire setup. If we want to do visuals, with our hands, that’s another thing. I think, another part of the culture. And this is just like, want to go to epigenetics, you want to do cultural shame. You want to talk about school, you want to talk about religion, what do you want? What portal of shame and disinformation Do you want to go down? Women have tons of it. And part of it is that we’re trained not to trust our own bodies, there are more laws on the books about regulating female reproductive health, and female sexuality than there is anything else in our legal system, women are still being controlled. So when you are, I mean, the Supreme Court just decided that we don’t have a reproductive choice, again, our bodies being run by the government. So if you’re raised in this culture, where you’re taught that you’re a commodity, you’re taught that you belong to a man, you belong to the church or the synagogue, and somehow you are property and you actually can trust your vulva. Because nobody else does.

Nobody else trusts what decisions you make with your body, it becomes very difficult to feel permission to explore your own body. If you don’t feel that you don’t have ownership of your own body, that comes out, you’re controlled. And I don’t think it’s a lack of curiosity. I think it’s a matter of culture, and shame, and patriarchy, and I hate throwing around patriarchy, and mothers who think that they are protecting their daughters by saying, you know, don’t touch there, don’t look there. Don’t be sexually active. Because in a lot of cultures, it’s more, you know, it’s more than East Coast, West Coast guys. You know, there’s a whole other part of this country, then, you know, liberal right and liberal left of the United States. And there’s a whole other part of this world, where women are still commodified, and literally murdered for being sexually active. Men who rape are, you know, Oh, bad boy, but she’s gonna be killed now. Or she’s gonna have acid though in her face. So if you don’t think that this information doesn’t register in our bodies, even if we’re in a liberal culture, or we’ve been raised in a liberal culture, it does. It’s there. It’s in the ether.

Kevin Anthony 13:16
Yeah, I think so. I think that’s probably the best explanation I’ve heard. I think you’re definitely on to something with the shame and the cultural stuff as to why it’s because I’d like what you said, it’s not a lack of curiosity. It’s actually more of the shame in the culture. And that’s probably, that’s probably the answer. Yeah. Which is, as I said, I’ve noticed that difference. And I’ve always wondered why that is. And I think that’s probably the best explanation I’ve heard so far. So I don’t want to go too far down the cultural rabbit hole, because that’s not really our topic for today. So I’m glad that it came up. Right. That’s the science. You know, we, it’s about the science. And it’s also we, we want to talk today more about female pleasure, obviously, we can’t avoid why they haven’t experienced as much pleasure as they could have. Because that does factor in right, the cultural stuff and the shame and all that. But let’s focus more on the positive today. So science. So, you covered a little bit of terminology. And we kind of started off there. And my original question was a little bit about sort of your work and how you’ve come to this place. So let’s, let’s maybe take a step back. Cover that so people can understand who you are and why you’re here telling us about all this.

Pamela Madsen 14:37
So who am I? So I started, I’m really good for the waist down. First of all, I’m just a lot of knowledge from the waist down. I spent well over a decade as a leading fertility advocate in the United States I worked with Resolve and then I founded the American Fertility Association, and so I’m quite well-known around fertility and, and infertility, and that led me to explore female pleasure and the disconnect that we had started to talk about, between our physical bodies and female pleasure. And how do we connect that work? When I was in my when I was 40. I had been married for over 20 years, I was a very young bride. And I was very curious about sex. I mean, I had a good marriage bet. I mean, we did Lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky, lucky lucky. Like I knew about all those things, I’d been masturbating since I had an aunt.

So you know, I, I’ve been orgasmic my like my entire memory, light. And all of my friends. We’re having affairs. Now I understand that if you go back, even 10 years, we didn’t have as much of this language as we have today, like non-monogamy, and polyamory. It was just cheating. That’s all it was, was cheating. So you know, now we have lots of language and lots of ways of negotiating. When I was 40, that wasn’t true. And so I didn’t want to be a little Dolly Parton cheat on my man. And I wanted to have these erotic highs that my girlfriends were having in these secondary relationships outside of their marriages. And I, what people can read the book, Shameless, it was published by Rodale get on Amazon, and I want to do the whole story here. But I read this, I discovered this thing called sociological bodywork, which is one-way touch by the massage table, and a boundary situation, which means that I was able to receive full body erotic touch with a practitioner, who kept his clothes on, who was not going to pull out his magic lingam, I’m in the middle of a session, and anointment them.

Kevin Anthony 17:14
Some men actually do and say those things. That’s why I’m laughing.

Pamela Madsen 17:18
And they are sex professionals. I found sexual logical bodywork. And it’s a funny story, you can read all about it. And I landed in finding the right practitioners for me. And while I was at the American Fertility Association, I was having my own inner journey and exploration, I left back to the bar, and I left the American fertility association with a good shove on my back. And because I was getting more and more interested in how sex connected to fertility and pleasure and how we were to support that, and that wasn’t popular with my board of directors. So I moved on and Got my certification, as a sexual logical bodyworker, and somatic sex educator, to go with my master’s in education, and my undergraduate degree in psychology. And I spoke to colleagues and said, you know, why isn’t this available for women? Why can’t we create a safe space for women to come and learn about pleasure, learn about their bodies? And I, my friend, Ron Stewart, my colleague said yes. And he had a retreat center in Canada. And I said, Okay, let’s do it. In November, we were sold out.

That was in 2011. What is the year 23? Now, it’s almost 12 years later, and we have been sold out ever since I only have two retreats left out of 10. For 2023, where people can register. We were booking most of them. Most of my retreats for 24 are sold out. Women want this work. They’re hungry for this work. And what is amazing is that years ago, when I was attending a retreat for myself, on holistic health, it was a green juice raw retreat. I bumped into and my book had just been published. And I bumped into this incredible woman, Dr. Betsy Crane, who was a professor at Wider University, which is one of the only universities in the United States that actually has a master’s Ph.D. program in sexuality. And she read my book. And she was like Pamela, this is incredible. And I said, Would you like to come through a retreat? I’ve got one coming up in South Africa. And she was like, You know what? Let me see if I can’t get an IRB and come as an IRB petition. dependent observer and she did and then she attended the retreat and said This must be studied. And so she joined with Casey Mal and Elise Beggar. And they did a study that took close to six years to accomplish.

And it is called Exploring erotic potential mixed method studies on Effects of a sexological bodywork retreat for people who identify as women. And it was just published so you got like, cutting news, because I don’t think the journal has been out more than a week and a half in the Journal of Sexual and Relationship Therapy, which is a very prestigious scientific journal. And what they looked at was, they wanted to look at not me. So this is supposed to be about me and my retreats. Supposed to be about the impact of somatic bodywork on women actually meant to come on. Right? This is a female body. But there are programs like the Apollo Project for straight men and cord boxes by the Vox four, four for gay bisexual, and transgender men, all the three of us and we all teach together, are doing this hands-on work, and they’re teaching partners. We believe in immersion. So the reason why Dr. Crane and company studied us back to the body was because we had a repeatable model that they could study over time to get so that’s the biggest thing in a study, right? Like, what are you studying? Is it consistent? Is this repeatable? Can you have this over and over again? And Kevin, I gotta tell you, when I did this, I was creating a safe place for women to explore their sexuality. Did I know that women were going to have these incredible, life-changing transformational experiences? Yeah. And that’s what happened.

Kevin Anthony 22:14
Yeah. And I’ve heard that story happened to a lot of them. That’s exactly what happened to my wife, Céline. Her mother took her to a workshop when she was like, 19. And then they did these types of practices. And immediately when that workshop was over, she was like, This is what I want to do with the rest of my life. She went up to the teacher, and she said, Where did you learn this? I need to go there. And that’s what she did. And she went, she studied with Montauk Chia studied in India and studied under Joseph Kramer, she was a certified sex logical body worker. So but that’s the power of this work, one experience. And you’re just like, mind blown. How do I find out more about this? How do I learn more about it? So when you say that women are having that experience, like Yeah, that’s the exact same experience that she had.

Pamela Madsen 23:03
So we do immersion. So women come for, they usually come for a week with five sessions. It’s a very particular formula that we use, there is a retreat called the opening for women who just want to step in for three sessions and see how that goes. But what was studied was our five-hour, five-session, 90-minute session retreats, and what they found. Would you like to have the results?

Kevin Anthony 23:37
I do. That’s absolutely one of my questions. And you know what, let’s just go there. Now, we skipped over a couple of questions, but maybe we’ll come back to those later. So let’s just talk about this study. So we know that this woman who worked for the University had read your book and was like, wow, we need to study this. Right. So, Professor? Yes. So so that was, you know, that was her subject matter. And she saw the value in your program and what you do and thought it, it really needed to be studied. So that’s how you got there to the sort of science part of it. Right? So now let’s talk about, okay, well, what did they find?

Pamela Madsen 24:14
So, it’s really important to know that this is a qualitative and quantitative study. So it’s a mixed-method study. So they looked at, they looked at emotional feelings as well as numbers. And they did interviews with the women as well as had them fill out surveys. So sexual self-image 70 75% of the women reported a positive change in how they thought about their sexuality, body image, you know, body shame 72% of the women found marked improvement, arousal, which is something that a whole show can be done on, because women are not given the opportunity to To understand the magic of the arousal and to really explore it, they’re often given five minutes in a sexual encounter with a male-bodied person to experience true erotic arousal. In my program, they have 90 minutes of exploring arousal very different. And 75% of the women reported a positive change.

This part was really interesting to me sisterhood, sisterhood, the ability to have friendships with other women and feel safe. With other women. 75% of the women reported a positive change. And I’ll tell you why that happened, Kevin. The secret is they weren’t competing. There wasn’t any mate competition, everyone was going to get their assessment. With their practitioner, you were assigned a practitioner, you weren’t competing for her practitioner. You weren’t everyone was getting the same slice of cake, the same workshops, which created a vibe that allowed women to become cheerleaders for each other, to support each other and not compete. Because usually women are put in a place of competing with each other feelings about genitals. We how we started this conversation.

It’s called genital self-esteem. Wrap your mouth around that. Genital self esteem. How do you feel about your buzzy? How do you feel about your vulva? How do you feel about your vagina 71% of the women reported a positive change, sexual assertiveness. 71% of the women reported a positive change and sexual satisfaction 66% of the women reported a positive change. So that’s a big, big deal. And then they went a little deeper. And they looked at major themes for women that came up and remember we’re talking about is women experiencing full body touch, full body touch for 90 minutes every day, for five days. So a lot of time, right to process this with female sexologists as safe ports, and groups and process right not just the touch. And what they reported was the importance of feeling safe. And that you guys you listening out there, if a woman doesn’t feel safe with you, or in a program, there’s no female pleasure.

Kevin Anthony 27:50
I did an entire episode of this show dedicated to that exact topic that one thing I talked about for an hour about the importance of safety. So go back and listen to that episode. If you somehow seem confused as to why safety is important.

Pamela Madsen 28:07
Yes, so you can’t be hyper-vigilant and have an orgasm. It just doesn’t happen. And so one of the biggest things was they felt safe at back to the body. They felt safe with these practitioners, they felt safe in the container that we created for them. And that allowed for them to then explore their body and all these issues that we talked about they had these very large shifts of attention and can connecting to self and others is a major theme. They were able to awaken to their sexual selves and other women feeling acceptance and permission. This is really interesting because I tell women, don’t ask for permission, ask for support. You don’t need permission to love and enjoy your body and to have female pleasure. But you may need support. And so that was a major theme is this feeling of acceptance and this feeling that they weren’t permitted, they were supported to explore the whole range of their erotic experience.

The other major themes were exploring arousal and orgasm and pleasure. They had a place that was available for them with people who knew what they were doing, and who didn’t want to take from them, wanting to give to them. So you talked about in the beginning how your interest is female pleasure, not your pleasure, per se. I mean, I’m sure you get pleasure from female pleasure. Our practitioners get pleasure from the job too. But they’re not there to satisfy their pleasure. They’re there for our client’s pleasure. And that’s a whole other animal right And so, you know, through experiencing bodywork. While on the table, the attendees began knowing and asking for what they wanted. They got to know their desire. I mean, a lot of people, not just women don’t actually know what they want.

And, you know, I’m all about. I’m all about consent. But what happens before consent? Like, what’s the step before consent? How can I consent if I don’t even know? Right? How can I consent if I don’t know what I’m consenting to? And so there’s a process where people were introduced to sex toys and different areas of exploration. That, you know, if you’re interested in giving one pleasure, and you got a new sex toy, how can she consent to that? Like, right off the bat? Maybe you introduce it to her? Look at this, darling, I’ve got, I’ve got a vibrator. Wow, you have a vibrator? Yeah, well, I’ve never seen this before. What does that do? What would you like me to use that? And I don’t know. If I want, I’ve never seen this before, we’ll maybe want to put it on our hands. Maybe you want to talk about it? So a lot is deeply in how do we introduce. Like, you want to 69 with a woman you want to eat a pussy? Maybe she’s never had that before? How do you introduce this to her? So she can actually consent. So it’s kind of a really big thing. We push consent, we push consent.

But we don’t really talk about how do you get consent. But what happens before the yes or the no, that actually can shape the answer? So there isn’t a sexual grip? Well, she said she wanted it, or she didn’t understand it, dammit, what you wanted to do with her. So that consent wasn’t will consent, because she didn’t have a full understanding. And I think that would help so much with men and women, if we really could speak about what we wanted to do, right? And then the last thing that happened for these women was transformational life changes. So your wife went to a workshop, and this is what she wanted to do with her life. Right? She had a transformational life change. Well, that’s what happened to them happens to many of the women who come to these retreats is that they, you know, I’m just gonna read this because it’s just easier for me, I’m sorry. Many participants commented that the somatic components of the retreats, help them heal from past hurts, trauma, abuse, or negative experiences in a way that traditional talk therapy previously had not.

For some women releasing the burden of these internal pains was life-changing. And then, in my own knowing women got married women got divorced, women change jobs, women moved, women have made big changes in their lives, after, you know, attending one of these programs. And because you know, that we’ll just like that book, the body remembers, right, that famous book that we’re all read, the body remembers, the body remembers, and the body also needs to remember new positive experiences. So what we’re doing as if your memory of sets and pleasure is that there is no pleasure in sets. That your context, the method you’re going to expect in every encounter, well, I know this doesn’t work for me, I know. So that’s what you’re going to keep repeating. So if we’re able to intervene with that, and we introduce new memories, of pleasure, we can create new expectations for pleasure, and replace those old memories with new positive memories of pleasure and orgasm and connection and body self-love. And knowing your desires, and I’ll take a breath so you can talk together.

Kevin Anthony 34:29
No, that’s okay. You know, I kind of had a feeling that the episode was going to go this way. What I mean is, I always write a series of questions. And when I write a series of questions, I like to over-prepare, so I like to have more questions than I think I’ll need and then I always go okay, this interview. I’m probably not even going to ask half of these questions, but I’m gonna write them anyway just because I want to make sure I have enough to have a good episode. And other times I think, Oh, I hope that’s enough because this person is probably going to be like pulling teeth trying to get information out. I knew that in this episode, I probably wasn’t gonna ask most of these questions you answered, I think four of the questions I had just in that model ago, which is amazing and wonderful. And there are so many things that you said in there that I can’t even remember them all to go back to that.

But that’s okay. That’s okay. Because this is a recording, so the listeners can go back and they can listen to it again, if they want to pick up a few more of those things. I have a lot of content you do. So, you know, you touched on the results of the study, you touched on some of the major themes. That was a question that I wanted to ask you about some of the major themes that showed up. And you really covered a lot of detailed parts in there. You talked about the safety piece, as I mentioned, before, I did an entire episode on how important safety is. So guys, for the men listening here. Obviously, you know, women know that they need to feel safe, if they weren’t aware of that already, that could still be helpful for them. But what I often see is that the men don’t get that part at all. Right.

And so that’s a huge piece for any of the men listening here is how important it is to create that space of safety. You also talked about communication, right? So you started talking about consent, and they said, but what happens before consent, right? And so we talk a lot about the show I have I don’t even know how many episodes I’ve done on communication in different communication techniques on this show. But you’re right, that is a huge piece, you should be having those conversations beforehand, rather than just showing up in the bedroom right away and go, Hey, I got this thing, watch this and right. It’s like, well, wait a minute. Didn’t you have a conversation beforehand about that? Right. So that’s another huge piece. One, if you’re a woman listening, if your man is not engaging in those types of conversations, it would be preferable if he was, but then it’s going to be up to you to try to start those conversations. And men, if you’re listening know that you should be proactively having these conversations on a regular basis, all the time. That’s just that’s, that’s, it’s kind of like relationship 101. But yet, so many people don’t do it.

Pamela Madsen 37:19
Do you want to hear my Favorite Couple’s game? Sure. If you’ve seen me before, you’ve heard this before, but I’m just gonna keep saying them over and over again. So, so a great way to work on no pleasure and no pleasure. You know, this is, that’s what’s happening here is to go take your partner to like, a really nice SEC store, you know, the kind that has dildos and 25 colors. And they set up the vibrators like they’re cashmere sweaters, that’s the kind of AppSec shop, you want to bring your woman to. Okay, you don’t want to take her to the sleazy place, you walk down the steps, and there’s some dude in the front with a gated, you know, front. Don’t take her there. You want the shop where it looks like the vibrators are laid out like cashmere sweaters, and you’ll know that place when you walk in, I’m not going to.

I’m not a spokesperson for anybody. So I’m not going to mention names. So you each get a basket. And you separate. And then you go and walk around. So the woman walks around, the guy walks around and picks things that you want to try or you would like your partner to know you’re interested in. But maybe there was some shame or you didn’t know how to articulate it, or maybe they use it. You’ve just never had the conversation. So maybe the sort of soft paddle ends up in your basket. Or maybe there is a video that turns you on. Or something on anal sex? I don’t know. So maybe you need lube and have never been able to tell him you need lube. So put things in your basket that you’re curious about exploring with your partner. He does it. She does it. And then they come together. Maybe you meet by the loop. I’m a big proponent of lube. Nobody ever said it was too much lube, guys don’t think in hand and put it on her pussy and think you’re giving her a loop or you’re doing as you’re putting spit on her pussy. You’re not doing anything to lubricate her. So I can’t stand it.

Kevin Anthony 39:39
They learn that from porn. I just did a whole video on why you shouldn’t learn how to have sex from porn.

Pamela Madsen 39:47
No, no, no, no. You want to get yourself some lube. I’m going to cover the name blue people loop me by the loop and you both look at each other’s back baskets and see what would give each gives you pleasure. So look in her basket of female pleasure, right? Look in her basket. What does she have surprises for you? Is there growth? Oh, she put a rope in the basket? Oh, I didn’t know. She might be interested in me. Time. Wow, that could be hot. Right? Like, oh, I didn’t know that you would like a vibrator. Oh, I didn’t know that she might be interested in the spanking. And then you as the man, pick three items from her basket that you’re willing to explore with her. And then for her pleasure. She gets to pick three things in your basket that she might be willing to explore. This is the part about what comes before consent, right? Exploration, conversation. Play. Oh my god, who didn’t? Like pleasure is playful. Are we going to play? Oh, you picking toys for us to play with? How exciting is that?

And then maybe like when I do this with couples, it’s so interesting. Each of them picks three things, and they buy all of them. They usually like to buy everything. She’s got a basket this fall. We’re buying all the things in my basket. We’re buying all the things in his basket. We’re taking that home. And so you know bringing the play back. Being the P back P and pleasure back to the female and male pleasure. We take sex too seriously. You know we we wouldn’t really it’s about connection and touch and and being supportive. What you never can do. Is young somebody’s Yeah. And that’s the only rule when it comes to female pleasure. Is don’t yuck her body? Don’t Yuck, what turns her on? Oh, you’re turned on by fairy things. That’s weird. You’re not going to get anywhere with her. She’s never going to forget that you said that to her. Instead can you please go buy a bunny glove? And, you know, surprise her with something soft and furry. So how willing are you to show up for female pleasure? You need more than five minutes, guys!

Kevin Anthony 42:29
Well, so that’s another piece that you mentioned before that I wanted to come back to with the time now we have talked at length about this on this show. And I’ve used many, many times the early studies that were done about how long the average man lasts. One study three to five minutes, the other study five to seven minutes. And then women 20 to 30 minutes. And honestly, you know, Céline used to say all the time, that to really drop into that really deep open vulnerable space most of the time for her was about 45. And in fact, somebody just commented on one of my YouTube videos about that, a man of course, commented on the YouTube video about how ridiculous 45 minutes was, and I must be doing something wrong and that no woman is worth that much work. And you know, I just have to laugh at those people. But what that shows us there are still a lot of people that don’t understand this.

Pamela Madsen 43:23
Yeah, and women need time. Look, lots of portals to pleasure, right? It can be if I’m in an established relationship with somebody. It can be totally hot for me in a trusted established relationship. Sometimes they just bent over and take it. And you know how that fast rough sex? Especially if there’s a big vibrator placed between your legs, you know? Yes. And what’s true is that for most women to relax into receiving, it takes time. You know, this goes for men and women. I’m sorry, you know, I, I, I recently had an experience with a male lover. And I put him on a table because that’s you know, and I gave him this really beautiful, deep massage. before I did anything else. I let him drop into his body. Right. And then my touch moved into a more sensuous way. And I it’s up to him over and other things happened. And his comment to me was oh my god, I came so hard. I think I threw out my shoulder.

Kevin Anthony 44:59
Yes, it’s totally worth it.

Pamela Madsen 45:02
Right. And, but that wasn’t investments, right? I had to have, you know, we need to have men and women need to have a rhotic endurance. Yeah. So safety dropping in. Same thing for the guy. He needed to feel safe, he needed to relax in his body. Before he could have my hands on his genitals, you know, have my mouth on his body. Same thing for women. We need to be, we need to relax. A lot of women have a lot of sensitivity about having their legs spread and having a mouth placed on their genitalia, how do I taste? How do I smell? How can you support pleasure? Darling, this is the most beautiful person I’ve ever seen in my life. Oh my god, I can eat you forever. You taste like honey, you are so sweet. You smell delicious. I’m getting hard. Just smelling your pussy. You’re like perfume, relax her, tell her all of her fears. She’s worried that she’s taking too long. She’s worried that she looks but she’s worried that she smells funny. She’s worried that you don’t like how she tastes. You want a woman to relax into her pleasure. Take those fears away from her. And, like, eat literally eat her with praise the touch with time baby. We have all the time in the world.

Kevin Anthony 46:36
You are absolutely correct with everything that you just said. And just to give the listeners a personal experience to illustrate that, you know, when my wife Céline and I got together? I think she had orgasms from oral sex, I think she told me once ever in her life. Wow, for all of those reasons that you were just talking about. And, you know, in the beginning of her relationship, you know, I mean, I’d love to go down on her. So I would want to do it all the time. And she would, you know, allow me to do it for a little while. And then she’d kind of pull me up and be like, Alright, come on, let’s have sex. And I realized later on that the reason why she would do that is because she never experienced orgasms during it. And so she wanted to move on to something that was actually more pleasurable for it. But once I was able to do all those things that you just said, right with the safety and tell her all those things, and all of that.

One day, I just told her, like, I don’t remember why. But for some reason that was already decided that we weren’t actually going to have penetration that day, we were traveling, and we were in some weird place. And I was just like, just lay down and relax, I’m just I’m going to go down and you for however long, I just feel like it right. She had a huge orgasm. And from that moment on, she orgasm every single time I ever gave her oral sex for the rest of her life. And that was the whole thing. You just needed to give her what she needed in that, in that experience to be able to relax and feel comfortable and drop in. So one of her big things, when it came to oral sex, was exactly what you said, I’m taking too long. She always felt like she was taking too long. So for me, I just had to tell her look, my tongue can go all day long, like I have, I’m not gonna be like, Oh, this is so much work. I’m I literally love doing this. I’ll do it for as long as you want. Right. And that was huge.

Pamela Madsen 48:27
I’m really glad you go to the gym and you lift weights, and you have physical endurance, you need erotic endurance. Yes. And you got to be able to do it from a sense of your own pleasure. Yes, you’re gonna have, there will be female pleasure when she feels desire when she feels pleasure when she feels that the person she’s with is wanting to be there with her that this isn’t a job. This is an honor. Absolutely. What did you want? Do you want to spend all that? And so give her time to relax in her body? What was the first thing that came out of her study? feeling safe. feeling safe means being relaxed in our bodies means not being worried, not just not worrying about all the things that we worry about during the day. And what’s really true is it’s so much that is true. For female pleasure. It’s really true from our pleasure.

Kevin Anthony 49:29
Yeah, and you know, and I would love to sort of flip that around a little bit because I have had some conversations with men, where I would explain to them what’s, you know, these long lovemaking sessions where you take time and you go through these multiple waves what they’re like, and I remember one man in particular, just looked at me like a deer in headlights and said, Why would you want to do that? Which of course blows my mind. I’m like, why wouldn’t you want to do that? But What I realized at that moment was that you know, there’s that whole idea if you don’t know what you don’t know. And a lot of men do not realize that if they slow down, take the time, and give her all of the things that she wants and needs, right? Their pleasure, in the long run, will be significantly enhanced as well. So you mentioned your experience with your partner and how you gave him this massage. And then he said, Wow, I came so hard, I think I threw my shoulder out, right? Like, that probably wasn’t going to happen if he didn’t take that time also, so. So the thing that I want men to understand is that it’s within your best interest as well. It’s not just about her, if you do that, yes, it’s about her. And there’s a benefit for you, too.

Pamela Madsen 50:43
You can have a much better experience with your woman. Yeah. And she can actually look forward to making love with you. Yes, and having different kinds of erotic experiences, that may not always look like a two-hour marathon. Sometimes you may like it rough and wild and short and fast. But she’s built trust with you. And she knows that sex is a buffet. And that you too can eat around and have some different kinds of meals with each other, you know, long meals short, fast lightens, keeping it simmering, you know, using words using all the various techniques that allow women to feel safe, and turned on and, and awake. And if you’re not interested, like why would you do that? Well, baby, you get what you deserve.

Kevin Anthony 51:37
Yes. And having known both, he and his partner and my wife knew his partner intimately. You’re right, you get what you deserve because we know what their sex life was like. Well, we are, this is a fascinating conversation. And I think that you gave a lot of really great information for both men and women. But we are actually getting to the end of the show. We’ve only got a few minutes left. I didn’t even do the mid-roll ad I completely forgot. Oh, no, that’s okay. It’s only for my own programs anyway. People know where to find my stuff. But I was so just into the conversation that I completely spaced and didn’t read it. That’s okay. Since we only have a few minutes left, though, what I want you to do is, first tell everybody where they can find more about your work. And then I have one more question for you.

Pamela Madsen 52:31
I’ll go quick. So first of all, they can go to backtothebody.org. And take the pleasure quiz. So this is for women, go and take the pleasure quiz. If you’re a guy listening to this, give the link to your female partner. Take the pleasure quiz, and see where you are showing up for pleasure. And then find some resources that can support you as a woman or for your female partner. To learn more about their own personal pleasure journey, so back to the body dead or they can get free consultations. Take the quiz, get lots of resources, learn about the study, read about the study, and really understand it enlarges on social media, they can find me on Instagram, at the Pamela Madsen or back to the body and Facebook, I’m verified and all those accounts and I’m sure you’ll have links for boats there will be Connect. There’s a lot of writing there’s a book shameless, how I ditched the diet, got naked, and found my true pleasure and got home and time to cook dinner. And I can get that on Amazon. So there’s lots of stuff. And you know what, what I learned from doing his work? That pleasure is possible for everyone. We just have to find our portal in. Yeah. And what’s your question, sir?

Kevin Anthony 53:54
Well, we always end the show with this question when we have guests. It’s kind of a fun light-hearted question, which is, what is your best sexual talent?

Pamela Madsen 54:06
I give world-class blowjobs. I love giving pleasure, you know, to a man that I care about and feel connected to through his car and through his belly and his inner thighs and, and all around town. So I might I’m a superhero.

Kevin Anthony 54:33
Very good. Your partners are very lucky. You know there are two things I love about that answer. The first one is, you didn’t even hesitate. I barely finished the words and you had an answer. I ask a lot of people that question and a lot of times they go, uhhhhhhhh? No, you’re just like blow jobs immediately.

Pamela Madsen 54:54
I know. I’ve been told. But that’s simply Why am I so good at it? It’s because I don’t just concentrate on a cock Am I now I concentrate on pleasure and lead the entire region. Because ladies, you have two hands and you have a mouth and you, you may have breasts and all kinds of things that can be used to enhance a beautiful and it’s not a job.

Kevin Anthony 55:21
Yes. So you alluded to something, when you didn’t really allude to it, you outright said it, which was that you loved what you do, right? And when I was talking about my experience, giving my wife oral sex that was part of it is like I loved doing it. And so that’s another big important piece for people to understand is that these things shouldn’t be work. You’re not just doing that. Oh, this is so much work. And I hear that I see guys commenting on my videos, saying how much work it is. It’s not work. That is the fun. That is what you were there to do. It’s not just about oh, a little penetration. Then you ejaculate. No, the whole thing is the fun.

Pamela Madsen 56:02
Yes. And if you’re not having fun, you know, go watch Netflix,

Kevin Anthony 56:08
Exactly. Go watch Netflix. Or if you’re a guy, go watch some porn and masturbate. If you’re not interested in really having the full experience, then go do something else.

Pamela Madsen 56:19
Thank you, Kevin, for having me on your show.

Kevin Anthony 56:21
Thank you for coming on the show. You know, having done similar work to what my wife did, I was already keenly aware of the benefits that it can have. Because you know, her and I’ve been together for almost a decade and watching the transformation she had with clients. I knew that this was important work. And I wanted to give you an opportunity to come here and tell as many people about it as possible, especially with your experience in this new study that just came out and all of that. So thank you for being here.

Pamela Madsen 56:50
This is science, not just hyperbole.

Kevin Anthony 56:54
All right, everybody that is all the time that I have for this episode. And I will see you next week.

We hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 57:11
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault. That’s https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault. Thanks for listening. And remember, you’re amazing!