How To Manage Racial Tension In A Relationship

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the love lab podcast, a safe place to get real about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts, Kevin Anthony and Celine Remy. And we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:28
Alright, welcome back to the love lab podcast. This is Episode 140. And it’s how to manage racial tension in a relationship. This is gonna be interesting because we have never covered this on the show. So we are sex loving relationship. And so we cover pretty much any aspect of sex, love, or relationship.

Kevin Anthony 0:48
And one thing that we haven’t covered yet in our 139 previous episodes is the topic of how to manage an interracial relationship. And so I think this is gonna be really fascinating. And I think it is so relevant today just because there are so many interracial couples.

Kevin Anthony 1:08
And I think there’s a lot of people that can benefit from hearing our guests today, their personal experience, they have another interesting twist than in that they’re not just an interracial couple, but they also are from extremely different cultures. So you could be an interracial couple that grew up in the same town or in countries on the opposite side of the world.

Céline Remy 1:33
I mean, I grew up in Switzerland, you grew up in the States, and that’s different cultures.

Kevin Anthony 1:38
So we have one aspect of that, but even still, like our cultures aren’t that much different. So you know, there are layers, right? There’s, there are different variations, so I think it’s gonna be a really fascinating conversation.

Céline Remy 1:51
Yes. So before we start with introducing our guests, let’s give a big shout-out to our sponsor’s power in mastery. So if you want to join the secret club of men who are great in bed, then check out power and mastery at power and mastery.com. It is complete sexual mastery training for men.

Céline Remy 2:10
Whether you want to have harder erections, last longer, or increase your sexual skills, there is something for you at power and mastery.com. Today, we have Sarah and Matthew, they are the hosts of the interracial couple podcasts and creators of the lover’s journal. It’s a guided journal for couples to map their relationship to greater love and harmony. So welcome Sarah and Matthew to the love lab podcast.

Cera 2:38
Thank you.

Matthew 2:38
Thanks for having us. Fantastic.

Kevin Anthony 2:41
All right. So you know, we actually have a lot of questions. We have more questions this interview than we usually write. So we may not get to them all. But we’ll do the best we can.

Kevin Anthony 2:53
And let’s just dive right in. So the first thing that I would love for you guys to do is for each of you to take a turn to tell us a little something about your background. In other words, where did you grow up? What was your life like, you know, prior to you guys being together because I kind of want to set the stage so people can understand just how different the worlds that you both came from really are?

Cera 3:19
Yeah, so I think I’ll go fast. So I grew up. My name is Sarah and I grew up in Kenya, in a small town. I don’t even know if you can call it a town. If you could call it a village, I would say in northern Kenya, the lift Valley. And I lived in Kenya until I was 26 and moved to America when I was 26. And then I met Matthew a couple of years after that in Los Angeles.

Kevin Anthony 3:49
So tell us a little bit more, like what was life like growing up in Kenya?

Céline Remy 3:55
Yeah, cuz I think you know, Africa huts, no running water like I’m going all the way crazy there and maybe that’s not at all that you like you didn’t have to go to the well and carry water. Like, come on. This is so outdated, like paint us a little picture there.

Cera 4:10
the little picture there. I did not go to the I did go to the well, but I did walk to the well it was right outside my house. But you know, I always think of myself as someone who had the best childhood because it was just I grew up with that on the farm with animals and just, you know, in a tiny community where everyone knows everyone, and I could just go play.

Cera 4:33
I would leave the house as a kid at 8 am, and my grandmother would be like, just be home before the last chicken gets home. I’ll be out running and playing with other kids in the village until either I was hungry. I was it was dark, but chickens are going home, and so I had to go home. And I always Yeah, so I feel like that was my life. My life was pretty, like, almost small in so many ways, but very intimate.

Cera 5:08
So I was surrounded by a community of people. And I guess like what I’m trying to say is like, all those things; sometimes I want to say like, all those things that people sometimes imagine what Africa is, it is what it is. But there’s almost, there’s so much beauty in that, that we don’t get to see.

Kevin Anthony 5:28
So yeah, you know, one of the things that’s interesting is, you know, when you live in a country, say, like America, and you see images on TV of what it’s like in Africa, they always show you, the starving children, you know, walking 10 miles to get water, and that sort of thing. So they always paint this picture, like, it’s a so horrible, terrible place to live.

Kevin Anthony 5:50
But the reality is, is when they actually do studies, and they study the kids to find out later, like what kids had a happier childhood, that usually finds out that the people growing up in places like Africa actually had a happier childhood, than the people growing up in places like America, because they didn’t have all the stress. And they didn’t have all the, you know, the craziness of, you know, what we call this more developed world. And so,

Céline Remy 6:15
and then had the community aspect, and they had the

Kevin Anthony 6:17
community aspect. Exactly. So it’s really cool to hear you describe that and to say that you had a great childhood because I think that’s probably more the reality than people here in America are really told or shown.

Cera 6:30
Yeah, so true. I think like when people say, Did you walk without shoes? I’m like, I did walk without shoes. I ran to school every morning. But that’s not what, as a child you care so much about, it’s about the love that you get from your community and the support that you get. And so for me even come moving back to the coming to the United States.

Cera 6:50
It was, yeah, I was coming from Kenya, but it was like, I almost came with that. Trust that everyone’s like that, you know, so it was a huge adjustment. But I was just like, everyone’s like back in the week Kenyans Are you know, so it was almost an, there was an ease of assimilation of getting into the country almost naively because I had that trust that came from my community. That’s a very interesting point that we probably won’t go into now. But

Kevin Anthony 7:28
you’re listening, keep that in the back of your mind, it may come up again later in this conversation. So let’s switch over and hear Matthew, kind of your story.

Matthew 7:38
So yeah, I was born in Los Angeles, and lived in several states throughout my childhood, and lived in two countries before this one drag me off to Kenya a few years ago. So I lived in Mexico as a kid, and then also spent some time living in Germany. But you know, what I think about was my childhood, where we came from, and actually, one of the things that you brought up in your intro was about, you know, these cultural differences.

Matthew 8:06
But one thing that we have so much in common is that I also grew up in it with a very strong community aspect, and a strong sort of family bond, I had a pretty similar experience, even going out to play, you know, the rule was just to be home in time for dinner. So there’s a lot of freedom and, and community. And so that was really where I, where I came from. Coming, you know, we’re in that and so when I think back when I think about what are some of these compatibilities?

Matthew 8:35
What are the things that made us come together so easy, in some ways, and is brought tremendous ease? Sure. It’s our experiences, you know, we didn’t get we didn’t, you know, we weren’t children when we got together, you know, we had had experiences, we had made mistakes, we had grown, we had been sad, we had been happy, we had all those things that, that we were able to learn from and grow from to bring that into our relationship.

Matthew 9:00
But when I go back, and I think about interracial couples or any couples, and when two people come together with those challenges, what are you know, where did those what are all the places those come from? And what are the similarities that where we have this touchpoint to say, Oh, we can sort of we can reset at this point? This is where we connect.

Matthew 9:19
That is something that was very similar even though you know, a nine and when she was nine, she moved to Nairobi when I was nine, you know, I left Los Angeles, the first nine years, I was in Los Angeles, and she was in a small village in North-Western Kenya. What completely different worlds they could not be more different. Yet the community and the family support and love that was so similar. And so

Céline Remy 9:46
yeah, that’s where, so I would love to know how people meet. So you guys are totally opposites. Then Sarah comes to America. And that’s where you guys meet like, how did you guys meet them?

Cera 10:02
I was on Tinder dating on Tinder. And Matthew swiped left.

Céline Remy 10:14
That means no?. That means no, no, no. Okay, well, I’ve never been on Tinder and neither one of us has ever done online dating. So I’m like, I want to make sure that I’m getting it and we kind of like old age here like, okay, so that meant no, he swiped left?

Cera 10:27
he swiped. No. Okay. So I have to back that up. So we knew we knew each other before that. So we, when I came, we had friends, mutual friends in common. And we had seen each other at friend’s houses. So when he saw me on Tinder, like there is a rule when you see someone on Tinder, I’ve not been on Tinder.

Cera 10:47
I don’t know if it’s like, online edit, edit, edit. etiquette. Thank you. That you just swipe left. You know you don’t say anything. And so he saw me and he was why what was what are you thinking? Well,

Matthew 11:04
the only thing that that that that really did, because I was like, Okay, first of all, as she said, we’ve kind of seen each other. But she looks up very young. She, when we first met, she looked really, really, really young. such that it wouldn’t have ever even crossed my mind to look in her direction. And but when I was on Tinder, because I’ve been I saw her, and I thought, well, definitely not.

Matthew 11:35
But I did notice that she wasn’t as young as I thought she I feel like that moment when I saw her on Tinder was basically just saying, I kind of tell us half-joking and half-serious. Like, it was this reminder from like our sort of our pre-birth time of, hey, that’s the person you’ve got to find.

Matthew 11:58
So it’s like these little, these little clues. It was like, you know, it was like the bread crumbs and Hansel and Gretel. You got to find your way to this person. And when we think of all these little tiny moments, where we randomly connected, like briefly not really connected, but saw each other in places where we really shouldn’t have. It just was

Cera 12:15
just randomly on another day. And I ran a couple afterward, as I ran into Matthew. And I was just like, Hi, because I know him. And then I was like, we were like, We should get coffee and get to know each other. And then a couple of days after that, I ran into him again. And we were like, okay, we really no one runs, like, into each other in LA, but we kept doing it. And we were like we should really get together and our mutual friend. Let’s get dinner.

Matthew 12:46
And before Yeah, as we went, we just went to kind of get to know each other. We never actually really had a conversation. So we did. And I gotta be totally honest, I did not think I was going on a date and that night on that I could not sleep. And I was like, Okay, I really like her. And I’m gonna back this up by saying about a week earlier, I decided I was really ready to go back into a relationship. And so I had pulled out my journal, I was in Death Valley for a little solo retreat.

Matthew 13:13
And I started journaling about what was going to be really important to me and a partner that way, my, you know, my horror, I didn’t let my hormones and my sort of brain neurology decide, I was like, I want to be really conscious about this. And I’m going home at night after we hung out. I’m thinking, Wait a second. I think that I described this person when I was journaling, saying I’m finally ready for a relationship again.

Matthew 13:39
And so, you know, the next day, you know, so I know you’re not supposed to call someone the next day or text them or whatever. And by about three o’clock in the afternoon, I was like, I can’t so I was like, how about a hike this weekend. And anyway, that didn’t work out. But a couple of days later, we hung out, and then our mutual friend invited us both out because she knew we were we’d like we were hanging out that day.

Matthew 14:00
She’s like, oh, I’m gonna take you guys out to eat. And so and here we are, several years later, and here we’re going to stay. Now, Viv asked me that and you said Who am I going to go bald with I would have said this one because

Céline Remy 14:16
this is awesome. So before we move to like your first living experience together and kind of like the clashes that happen, I just wanted to pause for a second about the process that you went through because it is something that we coach our clients when we work with, with one on one with our clients about having that clarity about who you want to attract.

Céline Remy 14:38
And really writing it down is such an important element to saying like I’m ready. These are my goals or intentions. Sometimes I prefer intentions or goals because they can be so rigid. But it has something so important when you write it down you commit to it and then that letting go and I think that’s also what happened for you You did that same process. And then I came into you. Well, I already was in your life. But that’s when I finally came into there.

Kevin Anthony 15:07
Yes, I had written. I had written a list of all the things that I wanted in a partner. And yeah, then when we came together, I was like, Wow, that’s a lot of stuff on the list. Actually, to this day. Sometimes she’ll say, when, you know, I noticed something about her comment about some way she is you’d like me to go. Was that on your list? No, but it’s a bonus.

Céline Remy 15:37
A little bit about the first and that was awesome. Thank you for sharing your story. It was really fun. But I want to know about when you first live together, like what was it like? And maybe, you know, what were some of the things that you were like, Oh, this is not so easy. And then this worked easily.

Cera 15:58
So we, like dated for what, two weeks within, in six months, we were living together, we moved in together. And Matthew is an amazing cook. And so he was doing most I was in school. And so he was doing most of the cooking. And he would go to the store and buy all this food, which is what I call American food. I cannot eat salad for dinner.

Cera 16:24
Absolutely not like I eat salad for dinner. And I can just feel hungry. And I was just like I was used to eating like, yeah, salad, maybe something warm, like, I don’t necessarily, I don’t enjoy cold food. And so it was nice because I wanted to be like, Okay, I’m going to please Him. But after a while I say getting really miserable I was if we made dinner, I just felt hungry.

Cera 16:48
And then he would get to the store and buy food that I didn’t even understand. Um, and so there was this thing between us where it felt like he’s making dinner and I shouldn’t be appreciative and say thank you for making dinner. But it was food that I really did not like.

Cera 17:09
And so it was like when we went shopping, we had to sit down and I and I had to say that I really am grateful for all that you’re doing. But I don’t like your food. I’m hungry. And that’s such

Céline Remy 17:23
that’s such a big piece of food. I’m a foodie and I come from. So from Switzerland from the French background. And it’s definitely when we go visit my family, it’s the biggest hurdle we always get, like issues with friction with my family. Because how we eat is a little bit different. And what we like and the quantities and it’s, it’s so it’s such an important piece.

Céline Remy 17:49
And I can see like if I tell my mom that I don’t like what she made, it’s nearly like if I’m telling her I don’t love you. And so it can be such a big piece because and I know for me too, it’s one way to express my love to cook for somebody. So kudos to you to be able to bring it up in a way that could be heard.

Céline Remy 18:08
And then also imagine that Matthew, you guys found a common ground or kind of like shared what you liked, and found a way to come to a place where you both felt appreciated, and then felt good about the action of eating?

Matthew 18:23
Yeah, and Yeah, I think so it was actually being able to have that conversation. And we’ve employed this a couple of times where we were we brought someone in from the outside to sit in counsel who could hold space for us to actually share and sort of, and moderate or mediate. And that was really important because I love that particular story.

Matthew 18:45
Because I actually don’t think I changed hardly anything, if anything, it was just to be heard. And I obviously changed a little bit but she felt like it was a world of difference. But to me it was the tiniest little shift, it was adding one little extra thing to a meal once or twice a week or whatever it was, it was an acknowledgment of this is hard for you the way that is just natural for me, doesn’t feel natural for you.

Matthew 19:09
So when I fully acknowledge that, even if I’m like, That’s ridiculous. And I can tell you right now, I didn’t only make a salad, you know, you can’t say I’m a good cook, and I only make a salad. That doesn’t make any sense.

Matthew 19:23
But, but there was something to that, right it is this I have these slightly different I have this different need. And if you can hear that, and you can acknowledge it, you can make an effort towards that. Then that was an issue that literally evaporated. It was a major issue. We had this council space where we talked about it the issue evaporated completely and she was like she still thinks I made this huge difference.

Kevin Anthony 19:47
And to me, I felt like I changed virtually nothing. But now obviously changed enough. But I listened and I acknowledged it but before I wasn’t that’s perfect because that’s the way it should be right the person who has a problem should feel like you made a big effort. And on your side, it should feel like it was easy to make that effort. That’s how these things actually work.

Kevin Anthony 20:08
Right? You know, it may have been big, it may not have been big, but it’s the perception of the Act that’s really truly important. And I think that you know, it sounds sort of trivial because it’s food or whatever. And I know for foodies, it’s not trivial, I get it. But the learning lesson is, is that you can take how you handle that and apply it to all of the other differences and challenges that you might come across in a relationship also.

Céline Remy 20:36
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Kevin Anthony 21:30
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Céline Remy 21:42
So let’s talk about something unusual that you guys did in your relationship. So I love so far all the different elements and aspects that you’ve shared. But I know you did something very different, which Sarah, you had mentioned prior to the interview that it felt that it was very important for your partner for him to come and live in Kenya for a while right to experience your life?

Céline Remy 22:06
And that’s something that you guys, did you guys moved to I think for a couple of years or something like this to Kenya, right. So maybe tell us a little bit more about that process? And why was it so important to you to have Matthew’s experiences? And then how was it for you, Matthew? To be immersed in that?

Cera 22:26
Yeah. For me, I knew that I wanted to move back home. And if I was going to have an American partner, we, I just knew that I couldn’t have a long-term relationship with someone who wasn’t wanting to move back to Kenya. So on our first date, I asked Matthew, would you move to Kenya with me?

Cera 22:45
And he was like, Yeah, sure. But I think for what I really wanted, I felt like living in Los Angeles almost was that I was living his life, life as he had known as an American. And I just felt that for him to really know who I am. And he must also know where I come from, and my people and the way in my childhood friends and my way of life.

Cera 23:10
And so that was really important for me that my partner was willing to also come and see who I was deep, you know, an in a deeper level. And so I think it was a year and a half of our dating, we moved to Kenya for almost two years.

Céline Remy 23:29
Yep. Amazing. And how was that for you? Because I get that. And as for me, that’s why I was brought my partners to visit my family. But that was four weeks. You know, we go like every couple of years. Like this is like a total a new thing. So how was that for you such an immersion? Did you learn a different language? And like, Yeah, tell us about that, Matthew.

Matthew 23:57
You know, I mean, yeah, that was a big jump to move. It also happened to coincide with a time in my life where I’d always expected that I was going to do a big trip, my, my plan had always been to ride my bicycle around the world at that same time, so. So I moved to Kenya was actually a less radical experience than what my otherwise plan had been.

Matthew 24:22
But, you know, I think one of the things that were, you know, first of all, was just amazing. It was eye-opening, it was all of these things. But as Sarah said, I got to step in and see something that I never would have seen. And because her, you know, her mother tongue is cuckoo, and her kind of the second language is Swahili, which I didn’t learn any cocoa, you and I learned a little bit of Swahili. There were certain things that I started to pick up.

Matthew 24:47
And one of the great things in our relationship was certain sort of language things that miss that is missing in the language or the way people speak. You know, if I forget we would you go to the restaurant and you basically tell you to know, the waiter, give me water. And I’m thinking that is so rude.

Matthew 25:08
But it’s not actually. They just, it’s actually it’s very direct and even just the sometimes what I can perceive as the tone of voice is very kind of direct in a way that makes me uncomfortable. And one of the things that had challenged us in our relationship before was, I kept feeling like this woman is just bossing me around all the time.

Matthew 25:32
And I don’t want like I’m done being bossed around, but she wasn’t bossing around at all, I could actually if I could just sort of translate that into in my mind, there was no longer an issue.

Matthew 25:43
And I think one of the benefits that we have in our relationship is that, because we come from these very, very different cultures, there’s this, there was never that assumption that I understand where you come from, you know, and I think also speaking in from the idea of an interracial relationship, or an intercultural relationship, sometimes we can assume that I understand, right.

Matthew 26:06
I also grew up, if she’d grown up in LA, and we both grew up in LA, yeah, it was in the valley, maybe you were in, you know, in a different part of town or whatever. But there would have been this assumption that we came from the same place, therefore, we know, we know more than we actually do. And so that, to be able to be totally open in that way to say, I really don’t know.

Matthew 26:26
And when I even think back on some past relationships, I, the number of assumptions that I made, was ridiculous. Because my family was so different. The expectations, the givens, the, you know, the lowercase truths, the even capital T truths, right? Like this is a truth. And it’s not, it’s just the culture or the family culture that we each grew up in.

Matthew 26:51
And so in some ways, the the, one of the great things about our relationship is that we didn’t come into it with this assumption that I know your story, I know your situation, I know the way you see things.

Matthew 27:07
And I almost feel like if I could, if we could, in general, bring that same sort of curiosity and sort of a real acknowledgment of the lack of knowing the experience of the other, how amazing that will be for any relationship. And we just got that sort of all of those assumptions were just stripped away from the very beginning and talk about a huge gift.

Kevin Anthony 27:32
Yeah, this is a wonderful point that you’re bringing up that I just want to emphasize for the audience. Now, because you came from such different cultures, you did something that was very wise, which really took time, and not just time, but like, take the step of literally living in each other’s countries.

Kevin Anthony 27:50
But you really took the time to get to know each other where you came from, and what makes you who you are, like, I love that, that example you gave of the language and how they would ask for something, they’re being perceived as rude to us, even though they don’t mean it in any rude way at all right? There’s, there are so many layers of those little things that are different when you come from such different places that you need to learn.

Kevin Anthony 28:15
But what I also want to say to the audience is, you could benefit so much, even if you grew up on the same block, right. And I know that you have something to share about this too because we talked about it in the pre-interview. But it’s that idea that even if you didn’t grow up on opposite sides of the world, in opposites cultures.

Kevin Anthony 28:37
Every experience you’ve had has been unique to you and your household, the way you grew up, even in your own household is different than the household across the street, or the town next to the town that you grew up with, or the state or whatever it is, you know, you can expand out as far as you want. So, yeah, maybe tell our audience a little bit more about how that can apply, and how those experiences can be different.

Matthew 29:03
Well, I know you’re one of the things that we also did right at the beginning, Sarah was an avid reader. And fairly early on, I actually got jealous because she kept referring to these, these books that she had read and I thought she’s read so much I want to kind of catch up. And, and so we decided we were going to be we were going to read a book together right at the beginning, you know, right, right off the bat.

Matthew 29:34
And we chose a book that was called things called the energy of money by Maria Namath. And it’s, you know, we’ve neither of us were, you know, we also recognize we’re going to build a life together. Let’s just kind of bring awareness to money, for example. And we the book turned out to have a ton of journaling in stinking, you know, exercises and stuff to do.

Matthew 29:57
And so we were really Able to spotlight duties, journaling prompts, or whatever to kind of understand whether they were forgiveness prompts, something you’re holding on to blocking certain energy, things like that. And so we had this opportunity sort of accidentally, we didn’t know that that’s what we’re getting into.

Matthew 30:13
We started reading the book. But it was it opened up all of these questions, and it’s called the energy of money. But all this stuff was just assumptions, assumptions, layers, assumptions, layers, assumption layers. As we went through it, it was like, Wow, there are just so many of these assumptions that we’re living with.

Matthew 30:31
So, you know, I think that was one of that was a clue into that for us was these things that we might have thought were very simple or very basic or just a given? and turns out, oh, wow, that’s not you see that totally differently. And that really opened something up for us through that work.

Kevin Anthony 30:50
Yeah. And just to reiterate, again, to the audience, is that we all make assumptions based on our own upbringing in our own perceptions, right. And so it doesn’t matter if you’re an interracial couple if you’re from different cultures, but the same race doesn’t really matter.

Kevin Anthony 31:08
When two different people who’ve had two different life experiences come together, you have to be careful about making a lot of assumptions about who they are and what they’ve experienced and that sort of thing.

Matthew 31:21
Very true.

Céline Remy 31:22
Do you have any? any mistakes you’ve made? Like anything you like? Okay, people listening? Don’t do that. We did this. It didn’t work.

Cera 31:34
Can you think of any? Well,

Matthew 31:36
I can think of one thing, particularly since we are since the topic is around inter interracial couples. I had, you know, so I mentioned something when she was doing when she was working on her hair. I use the word kinky hair. I remember that. And she was like, don’t use that word. I don’t like that.

Matthew 31:57
And I was kind of taken aback because I felt like I was fairly aware. I try and pay attention to language. And so I went online, to find out like, what are other African American women saying, like, Is that an okay, word? And it turns out probably 90% of my, air quoting research here was a black woman saying no, I mean, that’s a perfectly valid way.

Matthew 32:25
You know, that’s what I got my hair, right. And then they were probably 10%. They were like, now it’s not super cool. And at first, I wanted, I’d actually even went I was like, Well, you know, I did a little bit of research here, and the minority.

Cera 32:41
He came back to me, saying the internet saying, black women. Okay, calling their hair is kinky. And so. And I was like, you know, I don’t care.

Kevin Anthony 32:54
Yeah, but this is, this is another example of one of those things where like, you know, black people will use the N-word between each other. And they’re like, we’re totally cool with it. But people that aren’t black are just not allowed to go there.

Kevin Anthony 33:06
And so yeah, that’s one of those things where, yeah, sure, black women on the internet are probably calling their hair kinky themselves. They just don’t want anybody else to say it to them. So you have to respect that.

Matthew 33:15
But you know, but even that, as I hear, and I think that’s a really valid point. The other part is that, and I think this is was my big lesson is that it actually doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks, right? Like, he could be the only person on a problem with it. And if she is the only person that has a problem with it, it’s really not anything that I need a word I have to use. It’s not anything.

Matthew 33:35
And I mean, if you asked us now if this came up again, I don’t even know if it would come up. And that could have also just been a part of our figuring out what is the language that we use with each other? Where are our boundaries? It was kind of part of this thing.

Matthew 33:47
But you know what, it doesn’t matter what the internet says, it doesn’t matter if you’re the only one if that’s what’s important to you, then that’s, that’s really easy, give for me, you know what I’m saying? There are bigger things, just to not use a word, even if everybody else has, it’s okay. So what?

Kevin Anthony 34:03
Absolutely, that and that is a very valid point is all that really matters is how she feels about that word.

Céline Remy 34:09
Hey, I’m curious.

Cera 34:10
Yeah. Yeah, I felt really honored when he finally was like, Yeah, I will not use the word because I don’t feel comfortable with being referred to as kinky. And it’s so much more than just the word but actually feeling that my partner I’m feeling seen in hand was what was important.

Kevin Anthony 34:31
Absolutely. You know, here on the love lab podcast we would like to offer to you we use the word kinky in a completely different way.

Céline Remy 34:43
So I’m very curious about the sexuality aspect of was it did you have different expectations or different views around sexuality because your cultural backgrounds were so different, or did you guys feel like you had such Mirror expectations around sexuality.

Cera 35:06
I feel like I’m very open when it comes to sex. But Matthew is way open around sexuality. But I feel like we’re the one thing that kind of almost shaped it was that we both come from Christian backgrounds. And I think there’s something to that

Matthew 35:29
could be in that we both had to overcome British cultures in order to be able to live a sexually free and thereby humanly free life, I guess. Probably. Yeah. So I think there is, you know, I guess, yeah, there were their differences. I mean, I think always in some ways, but there was also a real sort of open and mutual respect and, and curiosity.

Matthew 35:59
And, you know, I also I kind of even like, joked when we got together, there are certain things that would come up, whether it was around menstruation, or anything that sometimes a lot of sort of, contemporary, or actually any men might find, like, a little bit weird. I don’t want to know about all the details, I just want, you know, want to go for pleasure, or whatever. And yeah, I think one of my lines early on was, you know, I’m not a boy, I’m a man.

Céline Remy 36:29
I can handle it.

Matthew 36:31
I can, there’s nothing that is going to throw me off my game. You know, I can, I’m going to show up. And this is, you know, we are human, we have fluids we have, things aren’t always clean and pretty and whatever, that, that that part of the beauty of sex and the part of the beauty of humanity is the fact that it’s not pristine.

Matthew 36:52
It’s not per idiom, quote, unquote, perfect. It’s, it’s human, you know, it’s carnal, it’s also spiritual. It’s, it’s all of that. So I think that you know, that really played into a real sort of healthy coming together to

Kevin Anthony 37:07
so sex is a universal language. So,

Céline Remy 37:14
tell me, and as we were wrapping up this conversation today, I know you have a few things and a few tools that I want to talk about that in a minute, but I want to know, like, what do you really love and appreciate about each other? What is one thing that you really love about each other?

Matthew 37:34
Well, I’m just gonna say, since we have, since we are on on the topic, now we’re going to talk about it, we created the lover’s journal, and the lover’s journal came out a little bit from our con. If some of the ideas started, as I mentioned, we started reading this book and then journaling about it. And the very, first, your prompt is actually what is 10 things that you admire about your partner made you fall in love.

Matthew 38:01
So, and it’s all written down, you know, it kind of continues to grow and evolve. And I just rose gonna read it, but I don’t actually have that one with me. But things that I admire, I mean, I think one of one of the things is that I just absolutely love and admire about Cera is this amazing sense of humor? And a real kind of real openness and a desire also to, to live in the question, you know, of, you know, there are times where we might even get into a little bit of a disagreement or an argument.

Matthew 38:37
And I love these moments where they come and it’s usually not right in the heat of the moment, but sometimes it will go on a walk. And she’ll say, Okay, let’s just, I want to assume that you’re totally right about this. And we kind of do that for each other. But I love that because that person means Oh, we get to actually really explore where we’re not fighting for our position.

Matthew 38:56
But being open for how do we grow. So when she does that, she’s basically saying, I’m more interested, in learning something or growing in this moment than I am about being right. And that also allows when she can do that it gives me the space to be like, oh, and now you tell me that same thing.

Matthew 39:14
And that we both get to be in this place where we’re not trying to be right or prove the other wrong or anything. We’re actually saying, what, what what, what can we what can I get from this moment that I wouldn’t have otherwise gotten?

Matthew 39:25
How can I be the person that that wins this disagreement by being the person who learns something new, instead of winning this agreement by being the person who doesn’t learn anything new because I’m proving you wrong and me right? And she does that so well. And that’s pretty. That’s pretty hard to it’s pretty hard to top it’s like one of most amazing things.

Cera 39:52
I think for me what one of the things that I love I really love about Matthew is we have we both have a very dark sense of humor. That, that some of the jokes that we make between the two of us, if other people, I remember making the joke in front of my mother and she really almost had a heart attack. And he was like, I absolutely did not give back to you.

Cera 40:20
And but there is something about the two of us that in the way that we speak to each other, and we joke about around with each other is like, nothing is off-limit. And I knew that whatever I say or I joke about I’m not going to be judged for. And so there’s that trust in our relationship that whatever comes out of my mouth, and we’re joking is like is not going to use it in to win an argument later on. And that is something that is really special about our relationship.

Céline Remy 40:53
Amazing. This was such a powerful jam, like rewind for the past five minutes and listen to that, again, because you’ve got so many little things here to apply to your relationship,

Kevin Anthony 41:02
there are quite a few things in there, if you didn’t really quite get it part of what Cera was just saying is safety. Right, that Matthew creates a safe space for her to be able to express herself and she doesn’t fear any retribution for doing so that’s just one, there’s like a whole bunch in there listening to go back and listen to that, again, because there are some real gems in there.

Céline Remy 41:20
So you’ve got a tool that you’ve created that journal, where people can learn to do what you guys are doing together and go through that. And that’s one way that you keep your love growing. And that’s one way that you want to help the world and ever couples to find more ease and grace and love in their relationship. So tell our listeners more about that journal.

Céline Remy 41:43
I know also that they can get it at lovers unlimited.co, we’ll have the link below and that you’ve created a special coupon love lab 15 for them to get a 15% discount. So make sure that you use that and check out that particular journal but entice them a little bit so that they can go there. And

Kevin Anthony 42:03
then we have one more very important question.

Céline Remy 42:05
Oh, yes. I’m not forgetting dates here. It’s our favorite question. If you’re regular to the love lab, you know, what’s coming? Who’s coming?

Matthew 42:17
Well, let’s see. So the lover’s journal and I kind of like jumped the gun a little bit on the last piece of the conversation. But, you know, one of the things that about, I don’t know, sometime last year, Cera we were talking about just, we’ve done really well in our relationship in a way that has definitely surprised me.

Matthew 42:42
You know, I mean, I’ve read enough relationship books, etc, to know that, you know, the challenges come the neurology changes the, you know, the, the, you know, the chemical cocktail that you get when you first meet somebody eventually that shifts. And one of my very good friends, this is a therapist, and when I when Sarah and I first started dating, I remember he was just like, Oh, dude, you are in your, you’re in that phase you’ve got in

Céline Remy 43:08
the honeymoon phase.

Matthew 43:11
And that’s, you know, and he’s like, that’s cute, like, enjoy it, because it’s not gonna last. And here we are, you know, you know, pushing five years later, and it hasn’t really gone away. It’s really weird. You know, and that’s not to say, we don’t have our moments because we do, we’re human. But, you know, so this question of like, wait, what are we doing? Right? You know, and she used to call me the prophet of doom.

Matthew 43:34
Because I would always say, this is coming to an end, this is coming to an end, I would appreciate it while it’s here. It’s not. And so it was really kind of looking back as like what’s really been working for us. And one, there’s a couple of things. One was a real openness. One was this journaling that we accidentally did at the beginning.

Matthew 43:54
And Cera wasn’t really a journal, and I journal regularly, if not every day, several times a week, on average, and have been doing it for many years. And so we kind of looked back over what we were doing, and what have we been doing. And ultimately it sort of came together in the lover’s journal, and the lover’s journal, we have it in four different colors. And it’s a series it’s basically 52 weeks of prompts with monthly challenges, and beautiful quotes.

Matthew 44:25
And it really is a way to guide and weaving really kind of delicately between the things that we love that’s why I mentioned you know, right at the beginning that first of all, what are the top 10 things that made you fall in love with your lover? You know, and then come those things of you know, the last time that you were in a challenge, look at it, you know, write about it from their point of view the last time that they hurt your feelings right about it from their point of view.

Matthew 44:51
So, and then it kind of goes back What are you what are goals mutual goals that you have, so it really weaves between the stuff that really enlivens and You know, when you’re writing and you’re thinking, Oh, I’m having these memories of the stuff that I love about my, my partner, my wife, my husband, my significant other.

Matthew 45:10
And then also what are those challenges, and when we kind of set the space for it with real respect and love that the base of it, it makes it also okay to go into some of those in safe. We use that word a minute ago, right, it’s safe to go into the challenging areas, because we’ve also created the opening for there’s love at the foundation of this. And now in order to enhance that we actually might have to go into some difficult places. But that’s okay. Because love and mutual respect are there. So that was

Céline Remy 45:42
every couple should get a lover’s journal to focus on the positive to get the tools they need to create that safe space and dive in deeper. So I think it’s a prerequisite so check out lovers unlimited.co.

Kevin Anthony 45:54
Don’t forget to use the love lab. 15 coupon? Yes. Okay, so we are running way over actually. But we have to ask our last question you each get an opportunity to answer this is our favorite question to end interviews with. And it is what is your best sexual talent?

Cera 46:14
Oh my goodness. I give good blowjobs

Kevin Anthony 46:25
it’s a great talent to have.

Matthew 46:28
It is a very good talent to have in a partner. You can absolutely claim which is kind of funny, because I’m going to give a little story with mine when we first got together and got came so fast. Her best friend said you’re not going to make it two weeks without having sex with this guy.

Matthew 46:51
And we had literally just met and she said Yes, I will. And I was like well, we’re gonna we’re going to I’m going to help you. So I will, it will but I’m we’re gonna say that oral sex is totally okay. So for two weeks, I just channeled my sexual energy and I just pleasured her.

Matthew 47:20
that’s all that happened. And so I think that somewhere in there that became a defining part of our sexual experience. And so I would probably have to say oral sex is probably pretty high up on my list.

Céline Remy 47:38
On your skill level.

Matthew 47:40
amazing skill level. Why I give

Céline Remy 47:46
I hear satisfaction which is very important. Matthew and Cera, it’s been It was a wonderful conversation. Thank you so much for sharing. where can our listeners find more of you if they want to follow your work?

Matthew 48:00
Well, generally, https://loversunlimited.co/ Our podcast is linked there too. It’s the interracial couple podcast that is found anywhere where you listen to podcasts. We also blog at lovers unlimited.co Instagram is where we are at this moment social media-wise most active at journal for lovers.

Matthew 48:20
And get generally we are pretty easy to find. Sara has a company called Eco Dunia at https://ecodunia.com/ and I, Matthew Temple, at https://www.matthewctemple.com/ but generally, we’re easy to find in the world.

Céline Remy 48:32
Awesome. We’ll have all the links in the description below.

Kevin Anthony 48:36
Absolutely. Well, thank you both so much for coming on the show. We really enjoyed it.

Matthew 48:41
Thank you for a mutual pleasure. It’s been you know the way pleasure supposed to be.

Kevin Anthony 48:50
Alright, everybody, that’s all the time we have for this episode. And we will see you next week.

Kevin Anthony 49:00
We hope you like this episode of the love lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 49:07
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault.

Kevin Anthony 49:22

Thanks for listening.

Céline Remy 49:23
And remember, you’re amazing