3 Secrets to Controlling Anger In Relationships

Kevin Anthony 0:05
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, a safe and fun place to get real and learn about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony. And I am here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom, and your relationships.

Welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode number 313 and it is titled Three secrets to controlling anger in relationships. We’re going to do something a little bit different on the show today. But it is absolutely relevant to the topics that I always talk about on this show. We’re talking about sex, love, and relationships every week on the show. And a relationship requires a lot, right, the last skill sets that you need to have in order to have a really healthy, successful relationship. And one of the things that I see often is the topic of anger coming up. And the anger can come up for a lot of different reasons. It could be past resentment, it could be something somebody did. But the question then becomes how do we manage that? How do we work through that anger without creating more damage in the relationship?

There is a group that I’m in on social media, it was started by a friend of mine who had been on this show and I had been on his show several times. Also, he has since moved on, and somebody else is taking it over. But it’s a men’s group basically. And what I witnessed in that men’s group online every single day, is a lot of men who are angry, angry about how their relationship has gotten angry about the fact that their wife wants a divorce, right? So I know that this is a common problem because I see it a lot. And so I think today’s conversation could be really valuable for those who are going through things like that and need tools to be able to manage it. So that’s what we’re going to talk about today on the show. I have a guest with a lot of experience here to help us unpack this and figure out how to deal with it.

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So my guest today is Alistair Duhs. He’s an anger management expert. He has over 30 years of experience teaching over 15,000 men and women how to control their anger. He is the founder of the Complete Anger Management System, a transformative program that helps people gain control over their anger in as little as 30 days, as well as the host of the Anger Secrets podcast where he shares insights and strategies to help anyone control their anger. Welcome to the show. Alistair.

Alastair Duhs 3:41
Thank you very much. It’s great to be here.

Kevin Anthony 3:44
All right, 30 years of experience, you’ve got some stuff to share with us. Let’s just get into it. All right. So when we’re talking about anger in relationships, because you know, this is a relationship-focused podcast. And so we could talk about anger in the workplace, we could talk about it in you know, maybe raising a family, there’s a lot of different places where anger can show up. But in this specific instance, we want to talk about how it shows up in relationships. Could you maybe give us some examples from your work and how you’ve seen anger showing up in people’s relationships?

Alastair Duhs 4:22
Absolutely. So as you’ve mentioned, I’ve worked with people around anger for about 30 years or so I work with a lot of couples. So mostly in relationships. Anger shows up in terms of arguments, right? So there’ll be a range of issues couples may be talking about. Often these discussions turn into arguments. Often these arguments end up in anger. And once people become angry, who knows what happens? So learning to control anger in those situations is very important.

Kevin Anthony 4:51
Yeah, we’re definitely going to get into that as we go through this interview. For instance, how do you actually control that? Whenever I asked questions, and I listened to the answers, inevitably more questions came up. So rather than going to my second question, I wanted to ask a follow-up question on what you just said, which is, you know, it starts with arguments and turns into anger. Do you have any advice for people like how do you navigate that kind of a conversation or an argument without it getting to the anger phase?

Alastair Duhs 5:25
And absolutely, some of this, I’m pretty sure we’ll cover soon. But for me, it always starts with awareness. So if you’re discussing something with your partner, things are starting to escalate. There’s simply nothing you can do to change what’s going on unless you are aware of how you’re feeling. So for me, the first step with people and especially couples, is to teach them to become more aware when they’re getting tense, frustrated, annoyed, or angry. Once you have that awareness, you have a number of options to change how you’re acting, but basically, you can’t do anything unless you’re aware of how you’re feeling.

Kevin Anthony 5:58
Yeah, that is absolutely true. This is a huge sort of key component to almost anything in life, right? You can’t make effective change anywhere in your life unless you are aware of the fact that there’s actually a problem that needs to be changed. So yeah, that’s a great place to start. In the pre-interview, we talked a little bit about the difference between anger, abuse, and violence, because it seems that sometimes those things can sort of get conflated when talking about how anger shows up in a relationship. I’m wondering if you could just take a moment to define some terms for us and explain the difference between those three.

Alastair Duhs 6:40
Yeah, 100%. And often people get confused between those three. So it’s a great question. So how I explain it to people is that, firstly, anger is a feeling or an emotion. So a really common feeling people have and people are allowed to feel angry. Basically, people are allowed to have any feelings they want to, especially in relationships, where it becomes problematic is how people express anger. So when people get angry, it’s kind of common for people to express it in aggressive, abusive or violent ways. And that’s when it becomes problematic for people. And I also talk about with clients, I work with five types of abuse. So the difference between anger and abuse is that anger is a feeling. Whereas abuse or violence or actions, and there’s a range of types of abuse, such as psychological abuse, such as verbal abuse, such as emotional abuse, such as sexual abuse. So anger is fine, at least in theory, like excessive anger is not great. But people are allowed to feel angry. It’s how you express the anger that makes a big difference.

Kevin Anthony 7:42
Yeah, another very important point to make. And this is something that’s very interesting because, for some reason, there’s this misconception that it’s wrong to have the feeling or to have the emotion, right, like, you see this guy say this all the time, like, guys want to argue logic to women and women are more, you know, operating from the emotional place, right? And so the men will often invalidate the feelings by saying, that’s just not right. Like, factually, here’s, you know, so therefore, you shouldn’t be feeling this. Right. So it’s just another example of, of the fact that it’s okay to have the feeling it’s what you do with it, right? It’s how you handle it. It’s how you react and what actions you take as a result.

Alastair Duhs 8:30
100% I completely agree with that.

Kevin Anthony 8:34
I think hopefully, that did a good job of explaining to people the difference between anger, abuse, and violence. I’m wondering, so my next question, is this. Are people always aware that their behavior is abusive? And if not, why not? Like, it seems like it would be pretty obvious that their behavior is abusive, and yet at the same time, you would also think that if it were obvious, they wouldn’t be doing it.

Alastair Duhs 9:05
100% as well, ya know, in my opinion, it’s extremely not obvious. So many people haven’t been even taught what abuse is and how it differs, say from violence. So a lot of people I work with, and especially men, just think of abuse as violence. So they think if I’m not being physically violent to my partner, what’s the issue? So they’re usually not aware of the most subtle types of abuse, such as the emotional abuse that putting people down or criticizing your partner, occasionally intimidating her if it’s a man. And it’s quite a shock to a lot of men, especially I work with when they realize that they’re acting in abusive ways. And in my experience, usually, they have no intent to act in that way. Like, what’s going on and an argument is they’re getting angry, but trying to get the point of view across, but they don’t realize they’re acting in these abusive ways. And it can be a real surprise to them, like I said, so. That realization is Huge for a lot of men I work with.

Kevin Anthony 10:02
Yeah, I completely agree. You know, my wife and I did a whole episode on this show a while back about what it means to create safety in a relationship. And what was really interesting about that in prepping it researching or writing it and actually doing it was that a lot of men, when you say she doesn’t feel safe in the relationship, their immediate response is, well, of course, she’s safe, she knows I would never hit her. The whole point of that episode was to explain that there are so many other levels of safety that are required in a relationship other than just the fact that you’re not going to get physically hurt.

Alastair Duhs 10:40
100%. And safety is an emotional feeling, right? So if you’re worried that your partner is going to lose his temper, or if it’s a guy we’re talking about, you’re not going to feel safe, that’s going to have a huge effect on your relationship. And to be honest, like physical violence and relationships is reasonably rare. The emotional abuse, the psychological abuse, the mental abuse, are much more common. And so understanding, particularly if you’re a man, so understanding if you’re acting in that way, is a massive step forward. But super important in relationships.

Kevin Anthony 11:12
Yeah. So now that we kind of understand the difference between anger, abuse and violence, we understand that it’s not always obvious, right? So if you’re listening to this, and you’re a man, you know, maybe pause for a moment to realize that there may be abusive behaviors that you’re doing that you’re not even aware of, kind of leads me to the next question, which is, what is the impact that this behavior has on relationships? So when you see the anger showing up, or you see the abusive behaviors showing up? How does that manifest in the relationship? What are some of the problems that it causes?

Alastair Duhs 11:49
Yeah, sure. Well, I guess my first answer would be around that sense of safety. So if one partner is scared, what of their other partners are scared of what he or she might say? Or do, you simply can’t have that emotional safety, that breaks things like trust and love, so it drives people apart? It makes things like communication extremely hard, it gradually just erodes the whole relationship. So yeah, very quickly, it leads to relationship distance and demise. And, yeah, it’s really, really sad when that happens.

Kevin Anthony 12:21
Yeah, you know, I have been somewhat talking about this from the point of view of, you know, the man being angry, and, you know, the potential threat for violence. But in listening to your answer, you know, it, something that popped into my mind was, I know a lot of men who are actually afraid of the reaction that their their woman is going to have. And so it does go both ways. Correct. Could you maybe talk a little bit about that?

Alastair Duhs 12:49
Yeah, 100%, it goes both ways. And I think most studies show that both men and women are roughly equally abusive in relationships. So the number of acts of abuse, it’s about the same, but the impact of those acts of abuse can be different. So I do think women are often more physically scared of their partner, and also perhaps more emotionally affected by acts of abuse. So men are often trained not to be as in touch with their emotions as women. So maybe if a woman, you know, shouts, so puts down a man that might not have the same emotional impact. But yeah, the number of acts of abuse is about the same. But the impact can be different.

Kevin Anthony 13:26
Do you find that the types of abuse are also different? Are their abusive behaviors different than the abusive behaviors that men would typically do?

Alastair Duhs 13:38
Except for physical violence, probably not so much. So when people get angry and act in abusive ways that can be roughly the same for men and women. Men tend to escalate arguments, though, which is kind of interesting. So there’s been research showing that typically, in an argument, a woman who will match a man’s level of anger, or as a man will tend to escalate things and usually escalate things to get his way or to previous right or something like that. So except for physical violence, maybe the acts of abuse are fairly similar. But again, the effects can be different.

Kevin Anthony 14:12
Yeah, that was it. I was just curious, I didn’t really know. You know, just thinking about it. It seems like well, you know, maybe women would do more like subtle things, you know, more maybe more passive-aggressive things, or maybe more emotional things versus men. But it sounds like they tend to be relatively similar, regardless of whether or not it’s the anchors on the men’s side or the women’s side.

Alastair Duhs 14:36
I’m not aware of a huge difference. Put it that way. Yeah. And in some ways, just abuse is abuse. Right. So if a person is engaging in abusive acts of any type, it’s going to have an effect on their partner. So really important to better stop doing that.

Kevin Anthony 14:49
Yeah, well, obviously, the main point is to stop doing the abusive behavior. And of course, you know, knowing what the abusive pattern is will also help you stop that abusive pattern.

Alastair Duhs 15:01
Of course, yep.

Kevin Anthony 15:01
So we kind of sort of touched on this already a little bit, but I’d like to go into it a little bit more because the title of this episode is three secrets to control. So we want to touch on each one of those secrets a little bit, right? And so the next question, obviously, is, what is that first secret?

Alastair Duhs 15:22
Okay, well, all of these three secrets are going to sound very simple, right? So in some ways, I apologize for that. Like, for me, a large part of the work I do is trying to convince people that it’s not that hard to change patterns of anger, so anger or abuse. So hopefully, these secrets are fairly simple. The first one is probably the simplest. It’s basically the idea that anger doesn’t work. So what that means for me is that I’ve worked with 1000s and 1000s of men and women over the last 30 years, I’ve never had someone try to tell me that anger gets them what they want.

People always realize that when they get angry, particularly in relationships, it doesn’t help a situation. It doesn’t lead to a good outcome. It kind of what’s ironic is that people would tend to keep acting in these ways. So I’ve had a lot of people who kind of hear that idea. And think, oh, yeah, that’s right. I’ve never thought of it like that. And doesn’t mean they change instantly or anything like that. But just understand that if you’re getting angry, it’s not going to lead to a good outcome. So why keep doing it? Of course, you need the tools to stop doing it. But you’re so secret. One is that anger just doesn’t work.

Kevin Anthony 16:35
Yeah, that’s really interesting, right? Because you see this often just in people’s lives, where they keep employing the same strategy over and over again, even though that strategy isn’t working. And I’m sure my listeners have heard many times, you know, the idea that the definition of insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over again and expecting a different outcome. So why do we in relationships, keep using anger as a tool or a strategy to get what we want, when it almost never actually gets us what we want?

Alastair Duhs 17:09
100% Almost, or it never gets you what you want. And I guess also, how I see that play out in the work I do is that I do a lot of relationship counseling with couples. So they come into my office, they talk to me about their relationship issues, they will often end up arguing and when they argue often they get angry. And when you see this from the outside, like for me, it’s really easy to think, what’s the point of this argument, like, no one’s going to win, both people are getting escalated. So just understand that if you’re getting angry, the outcome is not going to be good. There’s not a good strategy for basically enhancing your relationship.

Kevin Anthony 17:45
Yeah, not a good strategy. Nothing good really ever comes of that for sure. You know, you’re talking about when people come into your office. And you know, inevitably they start disagreeing, which can easily turn into an argument which can turn into anger. I’m curious if you could talk a little bit about some of the warning signs. Because if people could sort of spot that pattern happening before it spirals out of control, maybe they’ll be able to actually rein it back in again. So what are some of the warning signs that this might start going in that direction?

Alastair Duhs 18:20
Absolutely. And for me, that’s an absolute key, right? Because you can’t change anything you’re not aware of. So if you’re getting into an argument, and you’re starting to feel angry, of course, you need to be aware of that to change anything you’re doing. So I will teach people a whole range of warning signs. I won’t list them all. But basically, for some people, it’s physical signs. So in their body, they might notice things like the heart beating faster, they might feel the heart, their muscles might start to tense up a whole lot of physical warning signs, usually associated with adrenaline. There are also actions people take so people raise their voice in an argument, their body language and tone of voice might change, and the language they might use will change. people’s thoughts change.

So often, they’re having negative thoughts about their partner or what they’re talking about. They’re thinking things like, I’m right, they’re wrong. They think things like I don’t need this. And also there be a range of feelings going on in their body. So they might be feeling hurt, they might be feeling disappointed, or let down. So becoming aware of those, all those four types of signs, the physical signs, the thoughts, the feelings and the actions, is really important. And also important to notice them as soon as possible, because the sooner you notice those things, the easier it is to change how you’re acting and steer the discussion in a more constructive direction.

Kevin Anthony 19:41
Yeah, so there’s, there’s recognizing them and there are quite a few as you pointed out, and they can be both, you know, physical or emotional and psychological. You also talked in the pre-interview about something called the anger scale. And I’m wondering how that fits into when you’re recognizing them, should you also be thinking about where am I at on this scale? Can you maybe just explain how that works a little?

Alastair Duhs 20:07
It’s a great question. And the scale you’re talking about, I call it a tension scale or a stress scale. So it’s a scale of how tense or stressed someone’s getting. And a really simple scale, of course, from not zero to 10, where zero is no tension, no stress. 10 is just massive, extreme tension, stress, anger. And as couples argue, they tend to go up this tension scale. So they tend to get more tense, more stressed, more frustrated, more annoyed, and eventually to an anchor point, in terms of calibrating the scale. So for me, the anchor point is about seven on the scale. So it’s fairly high up the scale. So reading, and recognizing the signs that you’re going up the scale is very important. So again, so if your voice starts to raise if you’re having these negative thoughts, if you’re thinking, all this stuff about your partner, you know, that will tell you going up this tension scale, and really important to do something to go down the tension scale before you get too high. Again, it’s a simple idea, but it’s really powerful.

Kevin Anthony 21:06
Yeah, I love the idea of scales, you know, when, when it comes to, you know, all sorts of things like, you know, when it comes to trying to teach men how to control their ejaculation, you know, we have something called the arousal scale, which is it’s a tool just like this. And the whole point of it, is to bring awareness to where you’re at, because a lot of times by the time men realize where they’re at, it’s too late, right? And it’s the same thing with anger, by the time they realize where they are on that anger scale. It’s like, boom, they’re at a 10 already. Right? And it’s a whole lot more difficult to de-escalate from a 10 than it would be say from a seven, right?

Alastair Duhs 21:43
Yeah, absolutely. Yep. 100%.

Kevin Anthony 21:46
So that, of course, leads to the next question, which is, okay, you find yourself in an elevated state on this anger scale? How do you de-escalate that?

Alastair Duhs 21:57
Yeah, absolutely. And again, this answer might sound simple, but everything I’m saying does take practice. So learning to control your anger is a skill, that takes practice to perfect, but the very, there are two approaches I teach. So if someone’s getting very high on the scale, that sort of six or seven, that’s getting to the point where they are getting angry, it’s important to take some sort of timeout before they end up saying or doing something that really damages their relationship. So that’s one tool. It’s also a tool, which is commonly misused. So there are good and bad ways to take a timeout.

Kevin Anthony 22:32
Please explain, because I agree, timeouts are a great tool. And they’re one that I recommend, too. But yeah, definitely tell us a little bit more about like, what’s the appropriate way to use it versus the inappropriate way?

Alastair Duhs 22:43
Yeah, well, there’s a couple of key things. So firstly, important to take a timeout before you act in an abusive way. So before you put your partner down, call him or her names, and do something abusive. So some people leave it too late to take a timeout. So they’ve already acted in an abusive or potentially violent way, then they take a timeout kind of a bit later that point. But more importantly, it can be really frustrating for your partner, if you’re taking a timeout too frequently, especially so really important for couples to talk about the process of taking time out, when they’re both calm and relaxed in a quiet space, I guess, with each other. So ideally, a couple of us will talk about timeout when they’re good with each other. So work out some basic parameters, such as how long a timeout will be for where that person is going to go. And also what happens when you get back and ask them what good and bad things do when you get back.

So they basically agree to this timeout plan when things are calm and relaxed, then, if an argument is happening, and someone’s getting quite far up this tension scale, they take a timeout, and at least their partner knows roughly or knows when they’re going to come back and they know where they’re going. So it’s much easier for the partner who’s not taking time out, to calm themselves down to. And then when couples come back, it’s important to do what’s called repairing the relationship. So get back on good terms with each other. So make up have a hug, apologize, that kind of stuff, and then decide whether to talk about the issue again or not. So some people use timeout, just to avoid talking about difficult issues. Really important. It’s not used in that way. So I guess that’s an overview of timeout. It’s a good strategy. It’s not a perfect strategy, but it’s kind of a good strategy in some situations.

Kevin Anthony 24:27
Yeah, you know, I liked that idea of sort of setting the parameters around the timeout, because you’re right, what tends to happen is people don’t call a timeout until they’re way up on the scale, right? And then it’s just like, Alright, that’s it, and then they walk away. And that leaves the other person in this state of limbo, like, I don’t know where we stand. I don’t know when he or she’s coming back. I don’t know what’s going to happen when they do right. So setting some parameters around what that timeout looks like. And of course, obviously calling it before it gets too high on the scale is fantastic advice. is absolutely Yep. So that was one way of course to de-escalate. Are there other ways?

Alastair Duhs 25:07
Yeah, there’s much better ways. Oh, good. Like, I mean, I guess I’ve been doing this work a long time. But I personally think people should never get to the point where they take a timeout. So I think people should be aware of their warning signs before that stage before they get that elevated. The one other much more effective way. And again, this is gonna sound simple, but I call it self-talk. It’s a really common idea, right? So it’s based on the idea that in an argument if you’re starting to get escalated if you’re starting to get tense, stressed, frustrated, or angry, you’re probably having negative thoughts about your partner, or at least what he or she is saying. So really easy to get angry at someone if you have any negative thoughts about them. So if I’m thinking, you know, my partner is being unfair, if I’m thinking she’s, you know, being unreasonable that she’s wrong about stuff. And I think it’s important for me to be right, I’m going to be going up potentials here.

So the simple way to change that is simply to change your thoughts. So what I recommend to people is, to get your thoughts off your partner. So stop thinking about your partner, stop thinking about what he or she is doing, and start thinking about yourself, again, Sounds easy, right? But so if I’m going up the tension scale, I should be thinking things like, I’m getting to four or five, I need to be careful what I say, I need to start listening to my partner, I need to take a few deep breaths, I need to just, you know, think about the consequences. So my thoughts should be about myself, and what I should do in that situation. So that’s what positive self-talk is, it’s just thinking about yourself thinking about how you should handle the situation, not letting the situation get on top of you. You know, that’s self-talk.

Kevin Anthony 26:57
You downplay it a little bit and say, Oh, it’s, you know, just this simple little thing. But that is a hugely powerful tool, because you’re right, what most people do is focus all their energy and all their anger on the other person, what they’re saying what they did wrong, and how they’re wrong, and how, you know, I’m going to, you know, respond to that in order to win, right, which is the whole idea of listening, really, just to wait your turn, so you can jump in versus listening to actually understand what the person is saying. So that is huge. And, you know, another thing is, you keep saying, well, it’s just so simple. I know it’s just, and well, two things about that. One, as you accurately said, Yes, it is simple. But it also does require a lot of practice. But to you know, I personally think and you can tell me what you think about this, but I personally think that most of the great truths in this world really actually are simple. We just as humans love to overcomplicate them because we don’t want to believe it’s that simple.

Alastair Duhs 27:59
Yeah, I completely agree. Yeah. And all the tools I teach are not new tools like they’ve been around for actually centuries, to be honest. But putting them into practice is what’s important. So yeah, just changing your thoughts from the other person to yourself, like does take time and practice. Hard to do because a lot of people are socialized, not a lot of people are not socialized to do that. So often, it’s changing a lot of upbringing, a lot of training you’ve had from your upbringing, especially as men, you know, we’re trained often to win arguments not to back down to be right about stuff. That stuff just doesn’t work very well in relationships. So breaking all that training, you know, which we’ve had for maybe 30 years or 40 years. Yeah, it does take time and practice.

Kevin Anthony 28:42
Yeah, absolutely. And you’re right. I think a lot of it is we’ve just never really been taught these things. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. But you know, I mean, I say the same thing all the time about the work I do when it comes to, you know, the sexual piece of stuff. It’s like, I’m not claiming I invented any of this stuff, right? Like we’ve understood, we’ve understood these basic things, for honestly, 1000s of years. And yet, for some reason, as humans, we keep needing to relearn these lessons over and over again. So that’s why it’s important for people like yourself and myself to be here to keep reminding people of these things over and over again, hey, remember, remember, this is how we need to show up. This is how we need to operate. Here are the tools that you have at your disposal. So it’s hugely valuable and important for you know, people like yourself doing this work, even if you didn’t create it. It’s it’s a huge need and people forget and they need to be reminded.

Alastair Duhs 29:44
Yeah, I fully agree with that. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. Okay,

Kevin Anthony 29:48
so we’re about halfway through the show ish, give or take. I’m going to take a short pause for a break and when we come back, I know we’ve got two more secrets, at least that we want to dive into a little bit. So we’ll do that as soon as we Get back.

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Okay, so we talked about the first secret so far, there are at least two more. So let’s dive into what the second secret is.

Alastair Duhs 31:14
So number two, so I think we’ve pretty much discussed this. But number two is the key to anger management is awareness. So we’ve talked a fair bit about this. But if you’re not aware of how you’re feeling in a situation, so if you have an argument with your partner, you’re not aware that you’re starting to feel angry that you’re escalating up this tension scale. Basically, there’s nothing, nothing you can do to change how you act. If you are aware that you’re starting to feel angry, there are many, many options that you can take to change how you act. So secret number two is the key to anger management is awareness.

Kevin Anthony 31:45
Awareness. Yeah. And I think you’re right, we did a pretty good job of covering that one. So I don’t know that we need to spend too much more time on that. We also talked a little bit about de-escalation. However, what happens if you didn’t do a good job of de-escalating and now you’re like, you’re really in it, you’re in the anger? What can somebody do to sort of stop? You know, being angry in that moment? Like, is there something else like, because I think of de-escalating is like, Oh, I’m noticing, right? I got the awareness, I’m noticing that I’m starting to get angry, like, how do I pull that backdown? But is there something different that we need to do if we’re if we don’t catch on? And we end up realizing that we’re in like, full-on anger mode now?

Alastair Duhs 32:33
Yeah, I mean, that’s an extremely important question. Because the more anger you get, the more dangerous the situation is for your relationship, especially. So I’d still say the answers are the same. So no matter how angry you are, you can’t change anything unless you are aware that you’re angry. So even if you’re extremely angry, and then you suddenly notice that you suddenly realize are, I’ve just said something which is really bad, or I’ve just done something that was really bad. At that stage, probably timeout is the best option, because it is hard to de-escalate yourself if you’re that angry. So the idea would be to tell your partner, look, I’m getting really mad, I need to take a timeout and take a timeout. So if you haven’t noticed that awareness before that stage, as soon as you notice it, take a timeout.

Kevin Anthony 33:19
Yeah, I think that that is probably the best opportunity to use the timeout as a tool. Right, because we talked earlier there. Yeah, there are better tools than the than the timeout early on. But I think yeah, once you get to that stage where you know, you’re in full-on anger mode timeout, might that might be the really appropriate time to use. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. Okay, well, let’s just jump into the third secret then.

Alastair Duhs 33:44
Okay. This idea is also as I’ve said a few times simple, but this idea is that you create your anger. And, again, sounds simple, but probably a bit more complicated in real life. But what it kind of speaks to is that most people act as if other people make them angry. So if you’re driving on the roads, and someone cuts in front of you, for instance, in their car, really easy to get angry in that situation, and think the other driver made you angry. Or if your partner says something that maybe hurts you, maybe he or she criticizes you or puts you down or something really easy to get angry in response and think I wouldn’t be angry unless they said what they said. So that’s how people act, they act often as if other people make them angry. What’s really important to realize this, is that’s never true. So it’s always your thoughts about situations that make you angry.

So if I’m driving on the freeway, for instance, and someone cuts me off, I can think maybe that person is an idiot because they did it deliberately. Or I can think maybe that was accidental, they didn’t see me, which thought I have makes a big difference to how I feel and how I respond. So learning to think in ways that don’t lead to anger is very powerful. So I guess how this applies in relation to trips is, if you have frequent arguments with your partner, or if you get angry at situations with your kids or with your partner. It’s your own thoughts. And I know again, that sounds simple. It’s your own thoughts that are making you angry, you have the power to change your thoughts. That’s not always a straightforward process. But you do have that power. So learning to think in ways. And our thoughts come from our beliefs, which we might talk about soon. But learning to have thoughts and beliefs that don’t lead to anger, is the most powerful way to deal with anger long term.

Kevin Anthony 35:32
You know, Alistair, you went there, you went there, you went there. What I mean by that is, you went there, and you just told everybody, that they actually have the power to control their own experience, This is something that you really don’t hear in our society, we unfortunately, and I know you live in a different country, you might experience it a little bit differently. But in in the last decade or so one thing that I have seen here in the United States is this huge sort of victim culture, which is everything happens to me, everything is the result of something somebody else did, right? And what you’re saying is no, you need to take personal responsibility for how you are reacting, it’s not what happens to you, it’s how you react to it.

Alastair Duhs 36:20
100%. And just by the by so being in a victim position is quite a powerless position to have. Because if you’re acting in ways that suggest that other people make you feel a certain way, you can’t really change that, right? But if you understand that, it’s your thoughts and your beliefs and the mental processes that are going on in your brain, you can basically choose to respond to situations in any way you want to. So it’s a much more powerful way. It also implies taking responsibility for how you act, which is important, too.

Kevin Anthony 36:49
Yeah, and but that’s, that’s kind of the whole point is it’s empowering, right? Once you realize that you have the power to change that. It’s extremely empowering. I think that’s why there’s so much pressure from society to be in victimhood because it disempowers you but that’s a whole other conversation topic. But I just want people to understand that you know, the power of what you’re saying. And what you’re suggesting here is that you actually have the power to control how you react.

Alastair Duhs 37:17
100%. And I guess how it applies in relationships, is that I was working with someone many, many years ago, and this guy was engaged to his partner. And his partner was from a different culture. So her first language wasn’t English. And he came to see me and they were having huge arguments in their relationship. And I think part of the reason they were having huge arguments was that they were arguing, arguing in English, which was really frustrating to her because it wasn’t a natural language. And often what would happen is that he might come home from a long day at work, for instance. And she may say something critical to him about, you know, maybe the time he came home, or maybe he forgot to do something on the way home. And they get into this bigger argument. And it was just really destructive for their relationship.

So I suggested to him that, instead of thinking, these negative thoughts about her, when she made these comments, when he came back home, he should try to think about what’s underneath the surface with her. So maybe underneath the surface of her anger, there are other feelings such as hurt or being upset about something or being frustrated. So he tried to change how he responded, like, instead of thinking that she was a bad person for making these comments, he started to think that maybe she was upset, maybe she was so worried about something. So he started instead of responding to her anger with his anger, he started to ask, you know, what’s going on? Are you upset about something or you have something happened in the day, that you know, has made you angry? Have I done something? And simply by asking these questions, he had a much different outcome. So they wouldn’t argue about this stuff anymore. But she’d explained to him, you know, what was really going on for her.

And obviously, it helped their relationship. But the fundamental change in that was that instead of thinking these negative thoughts about the way she was acting, he was just thinking underneath the surface, that there must be something going on for her. So for me, that’s an example of, if you change your thoughts, you will often change how you act, which will give you a different outcome.

Kevin Anthony 39:24
Yeah, that’s a massive reframe. And this is, you know, you’ve probably seen the memes that fly around social media about, you know, instead of judging someone, you know, realize that you know, maybe they just had a really bad day, or maybe something happened. It’s kind of along the same lines, like when you’re having these arguments or but actually, before you get to the argument, you’re having these discussions to think about the fact that, you know, maybe there’s something else going on there that is causing this. Another point that you brought up actually that is really important, too. You’re talking about the cultural differences and the language differences. My wife also was English as a second language, she was from Europe. She was an excellent English speaker.

However, I did notice early on when we were dating, that we would often have a different meaning for the same word. In other words, she learned very formal English because she studied it, you know, in school in order to be able to live in this country and speak it. However, you know, there are local, like, there’s just when you grow up learning, you’re speaking a language, there’s just there’s sort of common ways that we use things that aren’t quite the same as the dictionary definition, right? And so I learned early on that I needed to be really careful how I selected my words. And sometimes we would have to stop like, if her her response to something I said, Didn’t seem appropriate. I would have done an ask, Well, wait a minute, what do you think that actually means? Right, then that could give lots of little examples of that.

Alastair Duhs 41:04
But, yeah, that’s a great question. And I think it also applies to people maybe whose first language is English anyway, right? Like, what you might mean by a word might not be what I understand that word to mean. So what that word means so it’s not really just a language issue, it’s a personal issue that we all have different experiences. So what we mean by things can differ, and particularly between genders, like, men and women can interpret words in different ways. And what I do with couples all the time, especially when they’re arguing, is just encourage them to try to understand each other, instead of the argument, like, instead of trying to prove your point, it’s much more effective to try to understand what your partner means by what he or she is saying, leads to a much different conversation gives a much different outcome leads to a better relationship.

Kevin Anthony 41:53
Yeah, absolutely. And you’re right. I mean, just, even if you’re born in the same country, speaking the same language, if you just grew up in different places, you might have different ideas of what certain things mean. Or even just the fact that you’re a different person, you might have a different interpretation. So that kind of leads me to want to ask a question about communication, because we can’t really talk about, you know, relationship discussions, arguments, de-escalating all that kind of stuff without really bringing in the communication piece. And so this really speaks to that is like, how do we communicate as a couple? And so my question to you is, are there some ways, maybe some tools, maybe some suggestions for how couples can communicate with each other, to either avoid escalating into anger, or at least be able to de-escalate from anger that is occurring?

Alastair Duhs 42:48
Yeah, again, a great question. So when I work with couples, most of the couples I see, have frequent arguments. And that’s why they’re coming to see me. One of the first questions I’ll ask is, do they still want to continue having these arguments or not? Most of them say no to that question.

Kevin Anthony 43:08
If they said yes. How do you handle that? Do you say, well, all right, goodbye?

Alastair Duhs 43:12
Yeah. 100%. Give them tips on how to argue like even more if they want to do it. But what’s a little bit ironic is that often, especially in the first session of counseling, couples will come to someone like myself, say they want to stop these arguments. If I let them go for about 10 or 15 minutes, they’ll end up with an argument. So these arguments are very tempting to have, at least in my experience, so it can be really tempting to try to prove your right to try to argue your point of view. But that’s not effective communication.

So I guess you’re asking about how to communicate effectively if you want to reduce these arguments, and that’s a key first step, you have to want to reduce these arguments. There are much more effective ways to communicate, but they mostly evolve, at least in my experience around letting to listen and try to understand your partner. Again, sounds simple and takes practice. So if I’m talking to, I might be let’s give you another example. So I was seeing a couple a few years ago, he’d been married about a year, and something happened on the day after their wedding that really upset the bride. Basically, the groom said something to the bride’s family really upset the bride and caused a lot of conflict in their relationship. And in that first year of marriage, they had basically been occasionally arguing about this topic, they’d been getting nowhere.

Because they both had their perspective on what happened. They both thought they were right about their perspective. They’re both trying to prove the other person has it, right. So they came to see me and what I suggested the guy do was that instead of arguing over his perspective, just started to understand his bride’s perspective more by asking Questions. And again, sounds simple. But somebody did that. And he’s simply asked three questions. And his bride said something about that situation that he’d never heard before, gave an entirely different perspective on the whole situation. And they were able to resolve that issue much more easily, simply because of that new understanding.

So, for me, the most powerful way to communicate is to ask questions is to try to understand your partner, which takes practice, because for many people, it’s not an actual skill like most of us aren’t trained, we’re trained to talk, we’re trained to kind of get our point of view across, we’re not trying to listen to understand to ask questions. And there’s a range of exercises where there’s a few exercises that couples can do to get better at that. But the other fundamental skill for me is active listening, asking questions, trying to understand,

Kevin Anthony 45:52
Yeah, I love that idea of asking questions, and there is a real skill to asking effective questions in a way that will actually help the relationship rather than hurt. It actually did an entire episode on this show. It was like 1212 questions or something? I can’t remember the exact dates. I had a guest on who wrote a book about it. Yeah. And his, his entire premise was how to ask better questions that can actually get to the root of what you’re trying to get to, rather than doing, you know, what a lot of people do, their question is, well, why are you upset? Why are you wrong? Why do you think that? You know, like, those are not constructive questions, right?

Alastair Duhs 46:33
Yeah. 100%? Yeah. And I’ll teach people like, I’ve been so open questions, right, already a good start. So questions that require a long answer are much more effective than questions that require a short answer. Also, what I encourage men to do a lot, like when men are asking questions, they tend to ask questions about the details of events. And what happened? So if I, as a man, am asking my partner questions about her day, I’m probably more likely to ask questions about what happened. And then if she had a meeting Alaska, who said, What in that meeting and asked her what happened after the meeting, that kind of stuff, which keeps the conversation at a reasonably surface level, really important, especially for men also to ask questions about feelings. So if I want to deepen that conversation, I should ask my queer partner questions about how she felt. So after that meeting, or how she felt after what happened, or did it make her upset or so to vary the questions between what happened and how people felt about what happened? is very important.

Kevin Anthony 47:33
Yeah, absolutely. And especially if you’re a man asking questions to your woman, asking her about her feelings is a great way to do it, because she’s an emotional feeling being and she’s going to connect and relate to that whole lot more than the actual details.

Alastair Duhs 47:50
Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And I guess to make it easier just to do that, men should also think about their feelings, right? So a lot easier to ask questions to your partner about how she felt if you’re kind of in touch with your own feelings. So really important for men to start to think about how they felt in situations of they’re talking about their day. And maybe they’re angry about something that happened in the day, also to think about feelings underneath that anger. So did they feel hurt? Did they feel it down, and they feel disappointed? These much more vulnerable feelings? The more in touch now with these feelings, the more likely they are to ask their partner about these feelings, too. So it kind of goes both ways.

Kevin Anthony 48:29
Yeah, that is absolutely true. Unfortunately, too many men tend to relate to their women as if they’re talking to another man, right? And people. People do this in general, right? Whether it’s man to woman, woman to man, or just, you know, somebody from one culture to another, we talk to people, you know, as if they’re exactly the same as us. And they function the same way as we do, right? Which is absolutely not true, right? We all function differently. We’ve all got different experiences, especially when you’re talking about men and women, despite all the pressure to say that men and women are the same, we are not the same, we operate very differently. And so for a man to be arguing, or talking to the facts, and leaving the emotion out, he’s never really going to connect with her, because she’s feeling the emotion. And that’s what she wants to communicate about.

And so as you rightly pointed out, a fantastic way, as a man to be able to go Oh, yeah, I should be asking her how she’s feeling is to actually connect with your own feelings. And of course, there’s often this sort of dumb idea. There’s no other way to put it, but dumb idea that for men, it’s somehow not masculine, to have emotions or to feel them. That’s just complete BS. We have emotions just like anybody else does. We should be aware of them. We should feel them, we should process them and allow them to move through. We might just do it in a way that’s different from the way that a woman might process them and move through them.

Alastair Duhs 49:53
Yeah, 100% and I fully believe men can get in touch with their feelings fairly quickly, but they need to be thinking about it more doesn’t need to be just trying to pay attention to the feelings throughout the day they need to be thinking about. If they’re angry or upset about something, what’s underneath the surface of that? What does it kind of reach back to local events in their past, which it’s kind of triggered? So that whole kind of just being a bit more sophisticated with anger is important and standard to think about what’s underneath the anger is also really important.

Kevin Anthony 50:21
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So we are pretty much at the end of the show, I want to give you an opportunity to do two things. First one is any last advice you have for people who have they they know they have these cycles of anger in their relationship? So that’s the first piece and then the second piece is, if they are seeking guidance or help, then let people know where they can find more about you and your work.

Alastair Duhs 50:49
Well, thank you for that question. So I think the answer is very similar to both. So if you are aware that anger is an issue, or maybe you’ve been told by your partner or someone else, that anger is an issue for you, it is really important to seek help. And I really fully believe that changing these patterns of anger, and not as hard as people think. So I know, it’s really hard to admit, especially as men that you may have an issue with something like anger. But it takes a little bit of courage, a little bit of strength to reach out for help. But it’s far better than leaving the anger where it is and having these relationship issues because of it.

So if people want to reach out to me, I have a website, which is angersecrets.com also have a podcast, which is anger secrets, there’s a range of free resources on my website that people can download. There’s also an opportunity to talk with me if they want to. So I offer a free 30-minute anger assessment call with anyone who wants to reach out to me, and we can discuss what their situation is their level of anger, the impact the anger is having. And I can give them a really straightforward plan to deal with it if they want to. So go to my website angersecrets.com listen to my podcast, and take it from there.

Kevin Anthony 51:54
Yeah, that is wonderful, I would absolutely recommend to anybody who’s listening to this, if you know you’re having challenges with anger in your relationship doesn’t matter, man, woman, or whatever couple get the help that you need. I have seen people struggle with this. And it is one of those things that is really difficult for couples to move through on their own. Because they have so much difficulty, you know, de-escalating, and without that third party in there to help it can be really challenging. So I highly recommend, it’s one of the reasons I really wanted to have you on the show. Because I know as I said in the beginning, it is a problem that is very prevalent. And I know that it is a problem that a lot of people actually need third-party help from something that just is so much easier when people have third-party help. So I really wanted people to know, you know, obviously what they can work on on their own, but also where they can find the appropriate help that they need.

Okay, I got one last question for you. It’s one that I asked everybody that comes on the show. I know we’re not talking about anything of a sexual nature on this show today. But I forgot to ask this question to one of my guests a while back and one of my listeners on social media was like, you forgot to ask that question. So I’m going to ask you and you any answer is appropriate and acceptable. That question is, what is your best sexual talent?

Alastair Duhs 53:23
Well, great question. And I was kind of expecting. I guess what I want to say, that this is based a little bit on feedback from our past partners, but I would have to go for creating a sense of emotional safety. And I know most people will think of sex as a physical act. And I know you probably don’t, but sex is a physical and emotional act, right? So creating a sense of safety and security and trust around six is really important. And in my opinion happens all the way through relationships, not just when you’re having sex. So for me creating this sense of emotional safety, where my partner and I can talk about issues around sex preferences around sex. I think that’s what I do. Well, so that’s my answer.

Kevin Anthony 54:09
Well, that is a fantastic answer. And you’re absolutely right. I’m sure you’ve probably heard before, lots of sex professionals will say it, but our brain is our largest sex organ, right? So yeah, not just the physical part and especially when it comes to opening a woman up, right, like making her feel safe enough to really open up to the physical act of sex. You’ve got to have that safety and it’s a must.

Alastair Duhs 54:36
100% Yeah, absolutely.

Kevin Anthony 54:38
Well, thank you for being a good sport and answering that question. Thank you also for coming on the show and sharing your many, many years of experience, knowledge, and wisdom, I think it was really valuable, and I hope that the listeners felt that way also.

Alastair Duhs 54:55
Thank you very much. Thank you.

Kevin Anthony 54:58
All right, everybody, that’s all the time that I have. For this episode and I will see you next week

I hope you like this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe, leave us a review and share it with your friends. And for more free exclusive content. Join me in the passion vault at https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault/. That’s https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault/. Thanks for listening and remember, as Céline used to say you’re amazing!