Handling Sexuality With Your Children

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast a safe place to get real about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts Kevin Anthony and Céline Remy and we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:27
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 220. And it’s titled handling sexuality with your children with Dr. Tina Shermer Sellers, okay, so this is a topic that we’ve never actually covered before, which is kind of why we wanted to do it in this show.

Kevin Anthony 0:48
I mean, 220 episodes, and we’ve never talked about how to deal with sex with your kids. time we get there, it’s way over time that we actually get there because, you know, every parent knows that this is something that you will be forced to deal with at one point or another. Like there’s just no way around it.

Kevin Anthony 1:06
And I think it’s probably even more difficult to deal with today than it used to be like, like, when I was growing up, it was pretty easy for my parents to deal with it. Because there was no real sexuality involved in like children. Like there was no pressure from the outside. Like, the movies weren’t full of sexuality, and the TV shows weren’t full of sexuality like we had happy days and stuff.

Kevin Anthony 1:28
Like there’s no sexuality in that at all. So for my parents, it was easy. They just had to completely ignore it and pretend it didn’t exist. But I think today, it’s so in your face everywhere, that there’s no way that you can ignore it, which means you’re forced to address it. And then the question is, how do you do that?

Kevin Anthony 1:45
And how do you do that in an age-appropriate way that helps your kids and doesn’t scar them even worse? So we’re going to talk about all of that stuff today. I think it’s going to be a fascinating conversation.

Céline Remy 1:57
I’m really particularly excited about it too. Because being European, my upbringing was so different. For me. I’ve seen my parents naked, my grandparents are naked. I watch my firstborn with my brother. My grandpa gave me my first ever scan novel. Some like things are just like, different.

Kevin Anthony 2:17
Yeah, that’s a little bit different than my upbringing, which is, don’t talk about it. It doesn’t exist.

Céline Remy 2:24
What’s the big deal? So I’m really excited to have Dr. Tina today. So let’s just give a big shout-out to our sponsors. And then we’ll introduce Dr. Tina.

Kevin Anthony 2:33
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Kevin Anthony 2:49
If you’ve been listening to this show for any length of time at all, you know that power mastery is an online program designed to help men be all they can be in the bedroom and then not just in the bedroom, but how to show up in your relationship. So go check that out, power and mastery.com.

Céline Remy 3:05
Today we have Dr. Tina Shermer sellers, she is a licensed sex and gender feminist psychotherapist, Best Selling Author, researcher and morality professor, and media personality whose expertise is spent on sex therapy spiritual intimacy, parenting medicine, and social justice. Welcome, Tina to the love law podcast.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 3:26
Thank you so much. I’m thrilled to be here with both of you.

Kevin Anthony 3:31
Okay, so as listeners of the show, no, we do a pre-interview where we kind of like kind of map out how we want to talk about things and what the topic is. We did that one here with Dr. Tina a while ago. So it’s not as fresh in my memory as usual.

Kevin Anthony 3:49
But there was something that we were talking about that I thought was fascinating and might be a good place to start, which is if we want to understand how to deal with sexuality and children, we need to understand the developmental processes or as you call them, tasks that kids go through as they’re developing.

Kevin Anthony 4:12
And because if we don’t understand their process for developing around their sexuality, we’re not going to have any idea how to interact with that and what to do about it. So maybe you could describe to the audience sort of that developmental sort of process and the different tasks that that kids go through as they’re developing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 4:31
Well, it’s there are some pretty specific kinds of things. And one of the aspects that I think has shifted in culture is back 40 years ago or so, we actually had a lot of developmental books ready at the at the hand. And but culture started to speed up and value started to shift in the 80s.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 4:56
And the focus was really on consumerism Just saying capitalism, let’s make more money and all of that we hid under, we hid under monikers, like family values, but that actually wasn’t what was happening in the United States. That’s how we grew to have that income disparity that we have right now. So one of the things that went to the wayside is abstinence-only education became across the land, which is like Céline is very different than what you had.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 5:24
I grew up in a Swedish immigrant home, so I maybe had something more similar to you. And as abstinence-only went across, it really took away what sex education we had had prior to that. And also, many people don’t know, it took away almost all of the research money. So we were doing really incredible research prior to 1980. And that basically all went away.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 5:50
But kind of like what you were saying, Kevin, what ended up happening is we removed the regulations from the Federal Communication, the FCC board. And so now we could show anything anytime. Okay, and cable started to grow. And so we began and misogyny actually started to grow because we had video games, video music, and then what was happening on TV and the movies.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 6:16
And then we have the internet that came in 10 years later or so. So things really began to shift with regard to what forms of erotic material were in front of people, but also the intersection of violence. And women really escalated at that point in all of those mediums.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 6:34
And so that became our default sex educator for the vast majority of the public in the last four years. So it’s hard. I think, that combination of not having developmental information, and then having all this other stuff in front of you really shift up what people naturally know. Yeah, and

Kevin Anthony 6:53
you know, before we go further with that, you covered a lot of ground there. So I want to dig into a couple of those things more. I didn’t think we were gonna get into those right at the beginning of the conversation, but let’s just do it anyway, get into the meat. Okay. So the first part that you mentioned, was the fact that we kind of switched to abstinence-only education.

Kevin Anthony 7:13
Okay, this is one where I agree with you, this is a terrible idea. And I know there’s I know that there are people listening that think this is a good idea. The problem is, you can’t repress anything, doing abstinence-only is the same thing as saying, you have to be X number of years old to drink, or to smoke, or whatever. Anytime you try to repress anything in society, it’s going to push back in the other direction, and it’s going to have negative consequences. S

Kevin Anthony 7:38
o I totally agree with you there, the idea that we could just say, ignore all of your natural urges, ignore all of the hormones that are running through your body, and just don’t do anything. Like, come on. We were all young, we were all teenagers. We know what it felt like, there’s no way we were going to pay attention to that no matter what they told us. And so by not giving us a proper education, they really put us in a difficult place, because we’re going to do it anyway. And now we don’t know how to do it safely and properly. That’s

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 8:10
right. That’s exactly right. That’s really the crux of it. You know, kids Yes, are going to developmentally develop curiosities body curiosities. First, when they are like one, two, they find their genitals, you know, 3-4-5, they start becoming interested in other what’s the other about, that’s how the doctor came along.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 8:34
You know, as we hit sort of mid-grade school, we’re going to have a little bit more social noticing on what’s happening as far as relationships and dynamics go, but we usually still stick to our kind, you know, so often girls are having these conversations with each other, they might even be doing some touching, boys sort of doing the same thing going up to 1314 years old, depending on how the child is growing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 8:58
And then they began to experiment. And sometimes it can be a little sooner or later, they start experimenting with a quote-unquote, romantic other. Well, if you’re only giving the public what they’re seeing in the media, and you’re not providing the education, what kind of what you’re saying, Kevin, it actually sets people up to have difficult and often abusive, traumatic experiences. Because they don’t know anything.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 9:25
They haven’t been given basic information on boundaries on consent what do I like, you know, and how do I have a voice for myself? And what’s it like to treat somebody kindly and with care? What what does it look like when I’m treated that way? What does it look like when I’m not treated that way and actually practicing those kinds of skills?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 9:50
So that at the very beginning, they even know a little bit about themselves and what they want and what they don’t want, and then they’re given body information, you know, things are labeled we label things with children as their learning language. This is your nose, this is your ears, it’s your eyes in the same kind of way they need to know about their genitals it is also a wonderful part of your body.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 10:11
And it’s actually I believe, meant in the largest part to give us pleasure and facilitate connection with ourselves and with others. So when we don’t provide those stepping stones at each age, children actually lead us there by their curiosities. Right. And if we don’t give them that, then they are actually left with only what they have received from the media, which there are messages that are not helpful, both for men in toxic masculinity, not helpful for women, and still being there for everyone else, and don’t know anything about yourself.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 10:51
And then we have all kinds of people that are on the non-binary spectrum, and we’re experiencing other kinds of things with regard to how they see their gender identity, or how they experience their attraction or they don’t, we’re not talking about any of that. So our poor kids are really thrown out to the wolves and like, good luck. Have a good time.

Kevin Anthony 11:11
So I want to go back to the second piece that you mentioned in the beginning, which you were just kind of talking about now. But I want to talk a little bit more about it, which is that, okay, so at the same time we are basically going abstinence-only and suppressing information. We’re also in the media, removing the restrictions on how much sex can actually be shown.

Kevin Anthony 11:32
So to me, that sounds like we’re kind of adding fuel to the fire, right? Because we’re telling you, we’re not going to teach you how to do sexuality properly. But we’re going to just throw as much blatant sexuality in your face 24/7 as we possibly can. That sounds to me, like a giant powder keg waiting to explode. Right? So yes. So I mean, I grew up in that time period, you know, I mean, I was born in the early 70s. Right?

Kevin Anthony 11:58
So I grew up through the 80s, at a pivotal point in time where I was seeing all of that. So I know what you’re talking about when you’re saying things changed because they really did change. And they change that dramatically.

Céline Remy 12:10
You know, I think one of the issues that we have, too, is, we misunderstand you were talking about the age like of like, one and two will touch our genitals where we want to play. And as adults, we put a sex twist to it. But it’s curiosity. It’s curiosity, and sexuality, it has nothing to do with sex as we think of it. Right?

Céline Remy 12:37
That’s the problem is we attached? Our shame. Yes, guilt, all our baggage around sexuality. And if we don’t let the child explore, how would you? How would you tell a parent, like how do you lead a child? Let’s say they start to put their hands in their pants, you know because they all do that. And then the public? Like, how do you teach them? What do you do? Do you know?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 13:01
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, he really hit on some important points in their slang because what shapes the way we respond as parents is our own history. And the vast majority of people who are, you know, I don’t know, 40-45. And younger, grew up in a culture where because we did these particular things withdrew some things and then gave them everything else, then, and that everything else is information gave them fantasy,

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 13:33
basically, it gave them non-reality to say, this is what you’re going to learn from, then I think what ends up happening then is people have experiences that they feel ashamed about, they feel shamed for, but they aren’t the experiences that are just the ones they have. In adolescence. It actually traces all the way back from the first time they were a year old, their diaper was off, and they found their genitals.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 14:03
And then they started to learn, I can control my hand and they’re doing it as often as they can. These are pre-verbal memories. But if you are in a home where somebody slapped your hand away or said, Yeah, girls don’t, and got kind of loud with you. You made a subconscious beginning of a belief that something must be fundamentally wrong with me because I don’t know why I’m getting in trouble. I just don’t know.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 14:31
And because it’s pre-verbal, and because we don’t start locking down memory maybe until about five or so do they stay consistent into our adulthood? We have had hundreds and hundreds of these experiences before we get caught playing doctor or our pants down or whatever, you know, lots of people will talk about those early experiences, but often not much earlier than that, right?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 14:54
But we know it started earlier than that. And so this is a real challenge because then this is what’s in our DNA as parents. And if we don’t put in our hand, something that both helps us learn what the developmental tasks are of that age, birth to two, two to four, four to six, all the way up to 18. And asks us questions about how might we feel when our child does this, that, or the other thing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 15:26
And if we can feel inside, a part of us that gets tense, wants to kind of close down or wants to react or just feel that that is your shame speaking. And so there are some questions to explore, where do you think that came from? Who do you think might have invited you to feel that way?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 15:46
What was it you might have needed at that age, in order now that you see the task in front of you in order to feel like, okay, good, I’m just exploring, I’m just figuring out life, I’m just learning, you know, it’s an elbow, it’s a clitoris, it’s all part of my body? It’s not given Wait like you’re saying Céline We are not adults sexualizing their curiosity, sensuality, you know, learning about their world and learning about others and learning about relationships, all of that.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 16:15
We’re just going Yes, of course, you’re fulfilling your job description at five, at eight at 1015. Of course. And here’s the information I would like for you to have so that you can make decisions that are going to fit what your values are becoming. Now, you know, now that’s a little maybe you’d say that eight 910 11. But you’re you’ve been having these little mini conversations, I call them 100 or 1001 minute conversations, you’ve been having those since they are two, there is no such thing as the talk, which likely you relate to Céline.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 16:52
And as in, you probably didn’t get a talk, you probably got it just unfolded over time. I don’t know if you Kevin got a talk. But that’s really typical in America, it’s either silent all the way. Or we got a really long talk that was way too late and too uncomfortable. Right? And that’s the story that you know, the vast majority of people tell.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 17:16
So when people are having these erotic images, I think in front of them over and over and over, we have to understand that the erotic images are also teaching about relationship dynamics and gender dynamics to Oh, yes. Oh, yes. And that then is informing I’m sorry, that that is informing than what people think is true. And this is a problem.

Kevin Anthony 17:41
There are so many things, this is why I sort of enjoyed it. Because there are I have so many questions, and so many different avenues that we could go down here, we could actually do a whole show on just some of these little bits that you’re talking about. So first, I just want to say that from what I remember my parents may recall this differently because I was a little young.

Kevin Anthony 18:00
But this is what I remember about the talk. We didn’t talk about sexuality, in our household at all in any way, shape, or form. I remember when I was in high school probably a freshman because I remember being pretty young. They did have a day in school where they covered sexuality, all the parents were aware of it right? And so when I came home, the only thing I got was, how did it go?

Kevin Anthony 18:26
I talked to my mom about it for maybe 15 minutes about what they told us and what they taught us. And she just kind of nodded her head and was like, Okay, great. And that’s pretty much the extent of Go master. There’s another thing that I really wanted to talk about that goes a little bit further back in what you were saying, which is you were saying that early on in these pre-verbal memories where they’ll touch, you know, young kids will touch the genitals and somebody will slap them and say, Oh, they’re gross.

Kevin Anthony 18:59
Don’t Don’t do that. Here’s the question I have. And I’m really curious what your take on it is. We see because, you know, we work with a lot of people and their sexuality, right? Both men and women. So we hear lots and lots of stories. Plus we are men and women. So we have a little personal experience as well. Yeah, yeah, I noticed that there tends to be a difference in the amount of shame regarding their genitals when it comes to men and women and I’m wondering if so for instance, with boys touching their penises when they’re young, everybody goes out there just boys.

Kevin Anthony 19:33
That’s what they do. Right up, stop it, knock it off. Don’t do that in front of people. Or sometimes they’ll say Go to your room or whatever, but it seems like they give boys more of a path for touching themselves.

Kevin Anthony 19:46
Whereas the girls seem to get more basically shit for and how I see it showing up and we’re talking about clients isn’t this is something we talked about all the time, but it’s like, Guys, usually, no, it doesn’t matter what Ah, they are every millimeter of their penis frontwards backward, everything about it, and yet something that you will constantly work with women in their 30s 40s 50s who haven’t even looked at their vaginas.

Kevin Anthony 20:15
That is so true. No. And I’m wondering if any of that comes from those early times. Wait, so is there maybe more shame being put on women towards men? That’s my question, basically.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 20:26
Yeah, That’s an excellent question. I will differentiate. And then again, we’re, we’re being very general here. Not everybody experiences it like this. But boy, boys will often get these two messages like you’re saying boys will be boys, ie, they will be sexual, they will do this.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 20:44
They’ll do stupid things, whatever. And, and underneath it still, is this don’t, you know? Like, she wired but doesn’t Yeah, exactly. It’s a joke. Maybe it’s there’s a little more levity to it. But most men still go underground, with their sexual experiences. And that, you know, they’re not talking amongst, they’re talking about conquering or things that are sort of in the boy code, but they’re not talking in a sort of shameless, this is good, I’m good. Sexuality is good.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 21:19
And this, you know, like a more informed kind of way. With girls, we have had forever. And I mean, I could trace the history, which is kind of I like history, because it contexts, it’s important for us to understand where we’ve been, so we can make some decisions about where we want to go. But you can go way back, women have been given a couple of different messages.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 21:43
One is, you don’t have sexuality, it’s like it’s ignored, it’s invisible. Your job is to be there for others, whether you’re watching straight porn now. Or whether you got trained up in the church last year, or 20 years, or 250 years ago, you were basically told you didn’t have sexuality, but your body was there for him a man.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 22:12
And, so a lot of girls have some a lot of women will have some stories about, oh, I found my clitoris because it’s also not right out in front, right? Are we all right? This it’s organized a

Kevin Anthony 22:26
little less obvious, but it’s more reason to go explore.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 22:31
No, exactly. But again, you need to have somebody saying this is your body, it’s a wonderful thing. And I want you to understand that. And, and then also helping women get the message both just by watching media, and often pretty covert or overtly, definitely covertly will get the message that if a man assaults you in some way sexually, then you must have done something, we can trace this back to the fourth century.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 23:06
Okay, when we tried to institute celibacy in the church, and when they couldn’t do this, or they were the denying the body, you know, they’re doing all of that in the fourth century. This is when the church became an empire religion, then we were giving the same kind of message, if he couldn’t do these, if he couldn’t deny the body, there was always a woman to blame.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 23:29
So we have woven that deep into our epigenetics deep into our DNA and deep into our society. So then you hear stories of women saying, here’s the assault experiences I’ve had, or the experiences of sexuality that I’ve had that I did not enjoy, that I did not know what to do about, and I have a whole book full.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 23:51
And I feel foreign with my own body, or I don’t know what to do with is, or isn’t even Okay, or am I normal? If, you know, because they didn’t get anything, you know, and we are starting to give more, but I think in some ways, you’ve got to be tenacious and going out and finding that sex education that is actually going to tell you how wonderful your body is and what all the parts are.

Kevin Anthony 24:18
Yeah. So against this fascinating conversation that could go in two completely different directions. I want to try to kind of refocus a little bit more on the children aspect again, but I do want to comment on what you said that yes if you go back through history, there was tons of that and really what it was all about was control.

Kevin Anthony 24:39
And if you really want to get into it’s not just I’m having fun having power over you. It’s literally because property and money and all were passed down through men. It was important to control who had children and what children they had and who had children with who and all that kind of stuff. So I totally agree with all of that. And, you know, obviously, that has not been that way for a long time.

Kevin Anthony 25:05
But I do agree that it is because it was there for so long it is in the DNA. And it is something that is underneath a lot of what’s happening today that people aren’t aware of. The other point I just wanted to make real quick was that. So we started talking about, you know, older women having these experiences and telling the stories and how this is formed who they are, and that I would love to have that conversation too.

Kevin Anthony 25:31
But since today, we’re really talking about children. I think I just kind of wanted to refocus it and say that what we want to talk about here today in this show is how to prevent those experiences from happening in childhood so that you don’t end up that 45-year-old woman who’s suddenly recalling all these horrible experiences that she had

Céline Remy 25:52
some, so maybe we can start with the biggest mistake that parents are making when they are handling their children’s sexuality.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 26:01
Yeah, you guys have both said it already. It’s absolutely silent. So not providing actual knowledge plus reacting in some way, when a child is naturally doing what is developmentally in their job description on task for that age where their curiosities are going at that particular time. They will either react out of their own shame, or they’ll just they’ll clam up and get silent. Right. And still, the thinking is I’ll talk about this, like when they’re 1314 15.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 26:38
And actually, no, there are all kinds of things to be talking about. Right now. So that’s the biggest mistake. I think, the interesting question is what I think many people have known that many people have said, Gosh, I don’t really like the way I was raised, I’d like to do it differently with my kids. But then they find themselves repeating the pattern because they’re so uncomfortable.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 27:02
Their shame is so right there. This is why I wrote the shameless parenting book because I literally wanted to hold people’s hands and say, here’s what you can expect, you know, this is how it will probably play out. And not just around sexuality, because it’s never, you know, separated out from the rest of us. But emotionally, and behaviorally, what’s all going on with this kiddo?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 27:26
And then here’s how it might express itself. And then how might this be for you? So giving them an opportunity to look at their own shame, and heal that, because we’re only ever going to be able to help our child as much as we have helped ourselves. So this book came around came about because a few years before that I had been working with so many people who were telling me their stories about growing up in abstinence education, some had been involved in youth groups, and some had not just had public school education, experiences.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 27:58
And I thought I need to understand the history of the Ark of how we got here, in 2000, you know, that’s when I started doing the research. And, and really, I found out this incredible history that went all the way back into the first couple of centuries, and then goes forward. For people who want to understand how we got here and don’t want to just blame their parent or their grandparent or whatever, but see that we’ve been a part of a larger system.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 28:25
That’s a really good book. It’s called Sex God in the conservative church erasing shame from sexual intimacy. And I’ve had so many people say, that was my life. That was my life. That helps me so much I understand the whole context. Now, can you help me actually know how to not repeat what happened to me, because I don’t want my child to feel what I have felt or have the experiences that I had?

Kevin Anthony 28:48
So so the shame is a huge piece. And that’s actually something that’s something that I work with people on a lot how to get over sexual shame. We’ve done an episode on this show about it. We’ve talked about it a lot. We’ve done YouTube videos on it, it is a huge topic.

Kevin Anthony 29:04
And actually, one of the biggest pieces of feedback we get from this show, is because we talked about literally everything and we talked about every part of our own sex life we did an entire episode was like, what does our sex life look like? Where we just told everybody, what six looks like for us? You know, and a lot of people say that they’re really amazed that we say the things that we say and it makes them it gives them permission to be able to talk about those things themselves.

Kevin Anthony 29:30
So I want to come back to the so then this has to do with shame, right? So we develop shame from these early experiences. And I think one of the reasons why we feel shameful is because we are not aware that these are normal experiences. And so I’m wondering, you kind of said it in passing in a larger context about you know, not knowing what’s age appropriate.

Kevin Anthony 29:56
Well, just like a 50,000-foot view Could you maybe give the listeners an idea of what types of sexual experiences or things that come up for children are appropriate at a particular age? You know, like, one to five is kind of normal for this or something like that, just so because I think I think people will go, Oh, you mean when I was five, and I played with the girl next door? That actually wasn’t wrong, right? Like, yes,

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 30:21
right? That would be exactly, yeah, I’m happy to do that. And if people want more detail, they can get the book. And it’s really well holding your hand. But birth to two, as I said, children learn about 10 months old that this hand that’s been smacking them in the face that they actually get control over it.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 30:39
And so between 10 months and a year, often their hand is going to land on their genitals, either in the bath or getting their diaper changed. And that is going to register pleasure, like, Oh, I like that, you know, I like the, you know, the soft ear of my bunny.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 30:55
And I like that, you know, and so they’re gonna go there, again, because it is pleasurable, and we are wired, as humans for connection and pleasure, we come out of the womb that way. And if you walk down the halls of an Alzheimer’s unit, you’re going to see people seeking connection and pleasure, even though they don’t have memory. So this is hardwired into us.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 31:15
So that’s kind of birth to two-ish. Two to four kids are starting to do more interacting with others, they’re still primarily interested in their own bodies, but they’re starting to figure out a little bit about relationships in the families and how that’s done. And so you can begin talking about consent and having a voice and what you like and what you don’t like, their getting language and that kind of thing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 31:40
But they’re also by this point, really got it figured out like by three, they’ve often got their diapers off, that I know exactly where this place is, and I love it. And we, if I have watching TV, or I’m, you know, whatever I can, I could do that I can touch myself, and it feels nice, it feels pleasurable.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 32:02
Of course, it does, you’re made that way. But you need someone to say, yep, that’s what’s going on. This is great. And you start around three sayings, and Mommy, Daddy, Mommy, mommy, daddy, and daddy, whatever, and you are going we do this kind of thing in our bedroom, or in the bathroom, it’s just part of protecting our private parts or enjoying our private parts, right, enjoying our penis, or vulva, whatever, you know, using actual terminology, until we begin that process of helping them understand that there’s a time and a place.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 32:37
But we don’t get angry with them, when they don’t learn it the first time we figure I’m gonna have to say this 250 times, because between three, and five, there’s a lot of development going on a lot of neurons, a lot of things being put together, the puzzle is being put together. And so it’d be like a baby, we’re at the grocery store, can you take your hands out of your pants until we get home? That’d be great. Thanks. You know, just it’s a no big deal thing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 33:01
But we weave it in, you know, in a shameless way, with our kids, when they hit five, six, they are by this point, they have begun to figure out, they’re noticing gender, things that are in culture, you know, like in their toys, or if they’ve got heterosexual parents, or if they’re just observing that or they’re starting to notice things. And this is also the time they’re noticing race, they’re noticing Who’s In Who’s Out. They’re just beginning the inklings of that.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 33:30
And so they will begin being curious about a friend. And so I often talked about, they need a lot of supervision, and they ought to be playing with people that are within 18 months of their age to yours on the way outside. Because developmentally, you’re changing so fast. So often there isn’t that power differential if they’re within 18 months, right? And that’s really what we want to try to reduce anything that feels coercive, right?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 33:59
I always say about kids, you can’t blame them for wanting what they want. Right? Because we still do that as adults. We’re just a little savvier at it sometimes, but do you see what I’m saying? This is part of our nature. So but we have to teach our kids how to manage that how to manage desires, desires are great, they’re wonderful.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 34:25
And sometimes we have to think about someone else too. And we have to, you know, think about where we are too. And so we’re slowly teaching these kinds of things. And that’s up through kindergarten, first grade, second and third grade, often you’ll start and again, this up being super general here because people will fall on other sides.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 34:42
And that’s completely normal to talk about maybe a crash or feeling something about somebody right? And this is because they have been picking up that we are in a heterosexual society, they’ll often be more verbal. If they like somebody who has the opposite gender that is how they identify themselves. If it’s the same gender, or they’re not feeling the same in their bodies, they’re gonna go quiet. So.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 35:15
So noticing others can happen somewhere between five and seven, I want to say though, go back to like three and four, it is not uncommon for a child in their gender identity if it doesn’t match the parts, they were given at birth. And if they are a strong child-like they got a voice, they have opinions, yeah, they’re gonna begin expressing, like changing their name, I’m, I’m Scotty, you know, I’m not Sheila, you know, like, I want this close, I want this, which is going to be that age.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 35:47
And if their parents are reactive to it, it is really going to be difficult for them. And not every trans child feels it that strongly then, but it’s not unusual to feel that strongly. And if a parent is not allowing any space for the child to be seen, known, loved, or accepted in that, then it can be suicidal 10 40% of people whose parents can’t support them are suicidal, often attempting some completing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 36:15
So we really want to understand when gender interests and understanding of my body come into play, and when interest in others come into play. By the time kids are eight, nine, and 10, they are really needing a lot of what we think of more as sex education. You know, understanding, definitely, we’ve already been working on what a good friend is and how you have boundaries and how you stand up for yourself and how you get help if you need to, and all of that kind of stuff.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 36:45
Now, we are starting to talk about more overt things about this is how sexuality functions in our society. This is how you came about, no matter what it was, no matter what their what I call their love story is, you know, whether its adoption, or IVF, or intercourse or surrogacy or whatever, they get their love story.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 37:08
But they’re also then taught about, like what intercourse is, how it is that babies actually form and what puberty is gonna maybe look like. And so you’re getting lots and lots of books. And at the end of every single one of these little itty bitty chapters that I wrote, I give a whole mess of resources for parents, and for their kids at that age, so that you don’t even have to do any thinking you just have to follow it really.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 37:36
And so parents are often. So let me just say this, the average child will in America be shown or find pornography by about nine years old. Sometimes it’s eight, sometimes it’s 1011 12. So it just depends. But nine. And so when I’m talking about you really giving lots of information here, you’re also talking about media, you’re also talking about oh, what do you think about the way that person just treated that person?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 38:04
Hmm. Is that what we think of our family? What do you think, you know, or you know, things around sexuality, things around just all kinds of things around media literacy? And you may at times, you may sit somewhere, and see something that feels kind of exciting. And it feels a little bit, it feels a little overwhelming. It’s something that adults do and you might see naked bodies or that kind of thing.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 38:32
Do you see anything like that that confuses you in any way, I really want to be able to tell you what it was. So if you can just come let me know, that I’ll tell you and so that you can have it in language that you can understand.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 38:44
So parents are often shocked that they have to be having these conversations and be pretty complete with sex education by 12. They’re like, Are you kidding me? And I’m like, if you don’t trust me, your 12-year-old will have been exposed to all of it. Yeah. But by sixth grade,

Kevin Anthony 39:05
I think I think the reason why parents get so bent out of shape by that is that I think they don’t truly understand what it means. So in other words, their sex education and their sex education, right? So with a 12-year-old, it’s one thing to tell them. This is what these people are doing, or this is what this act actually is. It’s another thing to go really deep into the details.

Kevin Anthony 39:29
Right. Right. Right. Right. difference. And I think, I think a lot of times when you tell parents look, by 12, you should have already given them everything they need. everything they need, as is appropriate for 12. Age. Right. And that’s exactly right. And that’s where I think we really have to explain to parents like no, you’re not giving them all the adult details.

Kevin Anthony 39:50
You’re not explaining a full-on, you know, sex party craziness, like you, ‘re not going into any of that stuff. You’re giving them what is appropriate and I really liked your approach to kind of holding back and waiting for them to come to you with the piece that they’ve got at that moment. And then base clearly explaining to them, okay, here’s what that really is. So you have the right information, rather than having to go out there and try to force all this extra stuff.

Kevin Anthony 40:17
Because I mean, my experience, I mean, I don’t have kids, although I did raise a child for a number of years with a previous partner. But one thing I noticed that has been around, you know, other parent’s kids are, they all get different pieces at different times. It’s not like, Oh when I hit this age, they’re all going to be interested in oral sex.

Kevin Anthony 40:33
And when they hit this, they’re going to be interested in that, like, now they just, they pick up a piece here, piece up there, and then one kid might be really into one thing, the other kids completely oblivious, doesn’t even know it exists, right? Just helping them with the parts that are coming into their awareness at the time is a fantastic strategy.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 40:51
I love that you’re bringing that up because I think it really means that you are paying attention and listening to your child. You also know what might happen in the next two to four years. You’re also kind of onboard, you’re listening, you’re listening in context, to your child. And I think what’s important about what you said, Kevin, is you’re giving them what they need and what is appropriate for them.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 41:19
And so when I say 1-minute conversations, nothing should take you longer than 60 seconds. In fact, you should be able to do most in 30. It’s a very brief kind of thing and often says to parents, kids come home once a blowjob Kim comes home, what’s this? What’s that? Well, you tell me what you think it is, you know, you ask a question first.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 41:37
So and then if they give you something, you can just kind of correct that little piece of it, you get to stay kind of at the 50,000-foot level, you know, adults do different things, or whatever you see on TV, that’s fantasy, there’s cameras and all that. And it’s not actually what happens perhaps in that way.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 41:55
You know, you’re getting kind of big things. But as you said, Kevin, you’re not going in, because that would blow their mind. Right? They have a hard time at 12 realizing that if they have heterosexual parents, their parents have sex, or their parents aren’t out dating, or if their parents will, even if they’re straight, you know, excuse me, if they’re gay or, or trans or whatever, they start to put together.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 42:17
You do that you did that with mom, whatever, you know, you’re like, Yeah, I know, it doesn’t make any sense at all. And you may never be interested in this. But I just want you to know about it because it is so much a part of the culture. And because what you see in the media isn’t real.

Kevin Anthony 42:34
Yeah, I’ve always thought it was kind of funny that like, kids will be exposed to all this sexuality stuff. And it’s all adults, you know, doing sexuality stuff that they’re exposed to. And yet, they always think that their parents have nothing to do with any of that they must somehow just their parents are completely isolated from all it’s kind of a funny little kid thing,

Céline Remy 42:50
you know, things that I would think are fantastic. Number one is when you said you have to be comfortable with saying the names. You can say penis without getting red already in the face of the vagina, or vulva, like, knowing the names have been super important.

Céline Remy 43:05
And I think also understanding that by the time your kid is 12 or 14, they’re teenagers. Yes, and they’re going to rebel, and they’re not going to want to hear you. So you have to have done the work before. Because then they’ll be like, I don’t want to have anything, but like to deal with this,

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 43:25
then yeah,

Kevin Anthony 43:26
that’s a good point that you bring up, which is that if you’ve been talking to them gradually, overall, all the years, then there’ll be okay when you want to tell them something when they’re 13. If you wait till they’re 13, or 14, like your mom gross giveaway.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 43:40
Yeah, and you haven’t made it to any of these little really important deposits all along the way. You know, I still say to parents, who will say to me, oh, my gosh, my child is 1314 1516, even 30. And I, I didn’t do the right thing, you know, and of course, it’s different. But I’ll say you can say if they’re in that teenage yuck time, which slots the kids get in, you can say there’s something I need to tell you, I’m going to try to do it in less than 60 seconds.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 44:08
And I’m just gonna give you the high points. But I really want you to hear this. You know, and you just do one little thing, you know, and then I say watch shows with them. Watch what they’re seeing. Ask questions about whether are you even seeing this in school.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 44:22
Have you heard about this, you know, so that they you’re paying really close attention to what is in their world, but as in their social media world, you’re, you’re really paying attention so that you can enter in actual factual information in with the baloney that they’re hearing? Because they are they’re getting inundated. inundated.

Kevin Anthony 44:45
Absolutely. Okay. This has been such a fascinating conversation. I totally forgot to read the ad in the middle. I’m gonna do it real quick here at the end, and then we’ve got two more questions for you before we pretty much run out of time.

Kevin Anthony 44:57
Okay. So are you will commit a couple who is stuck in a rut and just going through the daily motions instead of connecting the way you used to, or you’re tired of staying on mechanical sex that lacks spontaneity and fun and you don’t want to live a life of average, then we invite you to join our highly six power couple platinum program, give us 90 days, and we’ll help you bring the passion back between the sheets and be synched up sexually so that you can thrive with more purpose and passion in life.

Kevin Anthony 45:23
If you are interested in that, go to Céline remy.com forward slash passion, do not be intimidated by that title of highly sex power couple of platinum program. Yes, we paid a marketer a lot for that title. But don’t worry. Don’t worry, really, this is just how to get the two of you back to the sex life that you either had before or always wanted to have so hard

Céline Remy 45:47
to let go of shame so that you can be better parents. Absolutely.

Kevin Anthony 45:51
Céline remy.com forward slash passion. Okay, now that that is over.

Céline Remy 45:56
So we know that you’ve written the guide. It’s shameless parenting, right?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 46:00
Yes, famous parenting, is everything you need to raise shame-free, confident kids and heal your shame, too.

Céline Remy 46:06
Perfect. So where can people buy it? Where can they connect with you?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 46:10
Yeah, so that book can be purchased on Amazon or wherever books are sold. And if it’s not there, ask them to get it for you. It can also go to my website, which is just my name, and there’ll be places to click that will help you find it. Yeah, and they can also people can find me on Instagram at Dr. Tina, Dr. Tina at excusing me, Dr. Tina, shameless.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 46:38
That’s where I am on Instagram, if any of your listeners are practitioners of any kind, whether that’s therapists or doctors or even educators, clergy, coaches, psychologists, or whatever, we actually run an institute called the Northwest Institute on intimacy where we train those professionals because they didn’t get this either. We’ve trained those professionals on sexual health, understanding your sexual biases, and treating sexual dysfunction.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 47:07
And we have 37 little mini-seminar courses that you could take that are on our website that will help anybody. And so that’s that n as a Nancy and w ioi.com, or an Instagram at NW Institute on intimacy, and you’ll learn about the things that we’re trying to provide for professionals to help them to then guide parents along the way. So those are probably the best places to Yeah.

Céline Remy 47:35
Awesome. So if you could give parents one piece of advice on how to deal with their children’s sexuality, what would it be? One? One,

Kevin Anthony 47:45
You got 60 seconds? Parent? Yeah.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 47:48
Yeah, I would say chances are what you’re seeing from them if they’re under 10 mesh or so. Probably eight-ish is that whatever they’re curious is it’s a natural curiosity. And they’re also curious about other things in life that fall right into that same thing. So take a deep breath, put on a smiley face, and say, Oh, that’s interesting. Tell me more. Or would you like information on that? Or whatever. So make your face neutral or happy face? Even if your insights are screaming?

Kevin Anthony 48:25
That is great advice. All right. Well, we’ve got one last question that we always ask our guests. And it is, what is your best sexual talent?

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 48:38
Staying very, very present to what’s happening at the moment with me and with my partner, and sinking into it, because pleasure is wonderful, and it’s healing. And so I love all forms of connection and pleasure all forms of sex. My vocabulary is really wide. Because I think pleasure is healing and it’s connecting. So if you’ve got a safe, loving person in your life or you somewhere, then often you can, you can go to really wonderful places.

Kevin Anthony 49:12
Maybe we should have you back on to discuss your large vocabulary

Kevin Anthony 49:21
All right, thank you, Dr. Tina, for being on the show. There was great advice there. I really hope that parents who are struggling with this got something not only from this episode but also can then follow up on the resources that you’re providing for parents

Céline Remy 49:34
book and, and do the work. I mean, do it. I’ve always got this crazy student-run.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 49:39
Yeah. And I always say to people, you can change the legacy in one generation. So it’s so worth the work. Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 49:49
I didn’t do the sound effects today. But I would have dropped the truth bomb

Céline Remy 49:53
bomb right there.

Kevin Anthony 49:56
All right. Thank you again, Dr. Tina, for being on the show.

Dr. Tina Schermer Sellers 50:00
Thank you so much for having me. It was a joy. All right, everybody.

Kevin Anthony 50:02
That’s all the time we have for this episode and we will see you next week. We hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 50:19
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at Céline remy.com/vault.

Kevin Anthony 50:33
Thanks for listening. And remember,

Céline Remy 50:35
you’re amazing