Kevin Anthony 0:00
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, the place to be for honest and real talk about relationships and sex, whether you’re a man or woman, single or a couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony, and I am here to help you have the relationship of your dreams and the best sex of your life.

Kevin Anthony 0:23
All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 355 and it is titled What she secretly wishes you knew about intimacy. So this is, I think, going to be a fascinating conversation and we’re going to cover today is the things that women really want or need when it comes to intimacy that maybe aren’t quite so obvious, maybe aren’t quite spoken to directly by most women, but yet are critically important for them to really have deep intimacy. And I know, you know, obviously, listeners to this show know that I do pre-interview calls with my guests. And so when we talked about this topic, and we kind of threw out some of the ideas, I know from my own experience coaching that these are definitely things that not all men understand. So we’re kind of giving you at least part of the female playbook here as to what it is they really want and what it is they really need.

So I think this is going to be really, really valuable. And I would say also, if you’re a woman listening, because I do have a fair number of women who listen to this show. Also, I would say it’s worth tuning in also, because you may never have thought about some of these things, because I work with a lot of women now these days too, and when we talk about some of these things, I will often hear things like, Oh yeah, I never really thought about it that way. But that is actually underneath the thing I said I wanted, is that need down here, right? So this might bring a little bit more clarity into why you want what you want, or maybe help you see what you want or need in a slightly different way. So that’s what we’re going to be talking about today.

But before we do that, a short word from my sponsor, power and mastery. Power and Mastery 3.0 is the latest version of the popular men’s sexual mastery course. If you are struggling with erectile dysfunction, premature ejaculation, or simply want to increase your skills in the bedroom, then power and mastery is for you join the exclusive club of men who have taken their sexual performance into their own hands and become sexual masters. Mastering your sexuality is a key component to becoming the man she has always dreamt of and craved. Don’t leave your sexual performance up to chance or the throw of the dice. Become a sexual master today by going to powerandmastery.com and joining the exclusive club of men who have taken their destiny into their own hands. It’s powerandmastery.com and by the way, in that course, or series of courses, not only are you learning how to master your sexuality, but some of the things that we are talking about today, or at least that we’re going to talk about today, are also in there, because they are key skills in the bedroom and outside the bedroom. So go check that out, powerandmastery.com

Okay, my guest today is Zerina der venney, and she is a highly respected life coach dedicated to empowering women to unlock their fullest potential through her transformative self discovery programs and bespoke coaching, she guides clients on a powerful journey from performance to purpose, helping them create lives rooted in confidence, clarity and deep meaning. Welcome to the show, Zerina.

Zerina Derveni 3:47
Thank you for having me.

Kevin Anthony 3:48
All right. We’re just going to dive right in. We are going to probe your brain for as much female information as we can possibly get today.

Zerina Derveni 4:00
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, this is years of experience of being a woman, talking to women, and now coaching women on a professional level. So I’m excited to dive in.

Kevin Anthony 4:10
All right. First, I want to start with a little bit about your background, because we talked a bit in the pre interview call about how you worked for a long time, primarily with men, and now you are coaching women, so you’re working with a lot of women, which means you spent a lot of time, sort of immersed in both sides of that dynamic. I’m wondering if you can tell listeners a little bit about that background and sort of how that’s brought you to the understandings that you’re going to be sharing with us today.

Zerina Derveni 4:44
Yeah, absolutely. So I spent over a decade working in corporate in executive roles, and a lot of my mentors, a lot of my colleagues, were men, and I learned a lot about, you know, communicating with men, how men are. And thought just overall, how you know men behaved and working so closely with them, although even at a professional capacity, helped me really understand how to even improve that relationship in the workplace with men. A lot of my experiences were very good. I enjoyed working with men, I actually even learned a lot of my leadership skills working with men, communicating clearly, working with men, prioritizing priorities versus task working with men.

So there was a lot of back-and-forth dialog during my time in corporate with men, and I think, you know, during our maybe off-work conversations, also listening to some of their challenges, whether it would be just personally or in relationships. So being around that also helped me kind of understand, you know, from a man’s perspective, what were some of those challenges that they were facing, whether it be from a communication perspective or a mother’s behavioral perspective? So I got a lot of insight, I think, being around men for quite a bit, and it even helped me learn how to communicate with men in my personal relationships better. So yeah, and then, you know, a few years ago, I decided to pursue the passion of coaching. I was very much so into coaching for a very long time, I think also as a mentor to many women around me and helping women understand a perspective that was outside just, you know, their subjective opinion, and bringing into perspective a man’s way of thinking, I think helped me also be able to solution or provide recommendations to women that were just easily absorbed.

I think that’s the best way to explain it was a component of logic, a component of emotion, that for women, you know, they would be like, Oh, I get it, you know, like, okay, maybe, you know, he is not understanding me, or maybe I’m not communicating clearly, or maybe I’m a little bit all over the place, and it’s just really again, having that insight into how men communicate, or how they want to be communicated for better results, and then having that insight into women, how they can better communicate to men. So I don’t know if that answered your question, but yeah, I definitely had a lot of experience with both sides, but my decision to work with women only really came from a place of wanting to help them again through their self-discovery journey and be a better version of themselves.

Kevin Anthony 8:00
When you were working with all those men, did you ever run into maybe challenging situations, and you were like, I need to sort of crack this code? I need to figure out how to either communicate with him better, or get him to understand me, or anything like that. Were you? Were you kind of playing around with those things back in those days?

Zerina Derveni 8:21
I definitely would trial things to see what would be more effective or what would resonate better. So let’s just say, when it came to wanting to present a new idea, for example, I never kind of went in and said, Oh, this is what we should do. And what do you think about this? It was always in a collaborative way, where I wanted to be able to provide some sort of context, yet, you know, lean towards him, to see what feedback he had as well. So it was more of a collaborative effort, versus me, maybe wanting to go in and have this mindset where my idea was great and that’s all, and we should go for it. So I would try ways of presenting ideas or ways of presenting strategies. A lot of what I did was around consulting and strategies.

So that was one way, I think another interesting one too, was also helping you know them, build their confidence in leadership, right? So there was this component of me, sometimes being the only woman in some of these teams, where I would, you know, kind of use my emotional intelligence and see, like, what can I do to help, you know, my colleague just perform better in meetings? Or is it preparation? Is it, you know, having some discussions beforehand? Is it helping, you know, boost his ego or boost his confidence? Those are all really important. Just working in a team. Team where I knew, just as a woman, I had more of that emotional intelligence, or more of that nurturing side to me, that was effective in the business.

Kevin Anthony 10:10
So, essentially, you were kind of like a man whisperer. You were like, basically figuring out you know how to communicate effectively with them, how to potentially, you know, when you’re talking about working in a team of men, and you’re the only woman, and it’s like, anybody who’s really realistic understands that when you bring both the masculine and the feminine together, you get a synergy, right? Because there are, there are strengths and weaknesses that we each have. And so it’s a really effective skill to do when you’ve got two emotionally mature, you know, people that come together, you can really have a lot of synergy. So you’re coming into that all-masculine team and being aware of some of those dynamics and saying, How can I, as the one woman on this team, you know, sort of fill the gaps that they have and therefore transform the whole of the group. I think is an amazing skill, actually. And I imagine that you probably learned quite a few things about the way men operate from having had that experience.

Zerina Derveni 11:19
Absolutely. Yeah. And keep in mind, Kevin, a lot of the stuff, at least from the men’s side, it’s done at a subconscious level, right? So at that time, I had the awareness to tap More into my conscious level. But there was this level of respect for that. I was definitely, you know, it was really important for me to be able to communicate with respect, to be able to support with respect that was reciprocated. So I found very early on, if I, you know, go in with this mindset of full respect and, you know, performance-wise, try my best, whether it’s preparation, whatever it is, it was oftentimes reciprocated. So there was this synergy, you know, the feminine and the masculine that worked really well. Our results, most often, you know, were great because of that, because of the different dynamics and the different values we each brought.

Kevin Anthony 12:17
That’s not really the focus of what we’re talking about today, but I think it’s really interesting, right? Because you had this experience working with so many men and learning how to speak to them, work with them how to sort of create those successful dynamics. Then you turn to coaching, right? When you’re coaching women primarily, and now you have an opportunity to share with them all those things that you learned. But while doing that, I imagine you are also hearing quite a lot from the ladies about what they need as well, right? So that’s interesting, how you ended up sort of being an expert on I mean, obviously you’re a woman, so you have your personal life experience, but from becoming an expert in what it is women are really looking for, you got there because of all this experience you had as a woman working with a bunch of men.

Kevin Anthony 13:04
So it’s an interesting way that you came around to that, but I think, also, a very valuable way. So let’s talk now about the other end, which is, what is it that women really need? We talked about a few things in the pre-interview, so I kind of want to make sure that we hit a few of them. So the title of this episode is What She Secretly Wishes You Knew About Intimacy. So let’s talk about a few of those things. And let’s start with the impact of her feeling unseen. So this is one of the things you shared with me that was a really big thing for women, is that they often will feel unseen. Talk about that impact?

Zerina Derveni 13:41
Yeah, absolutely. So I think, you know, we often hear, you know, compliment your woman, give her attention, tell her she looks nice, you know, but feeling seeing is so different from just giving a compliment, or, you know, just physically seeing her or being you know, present with her. What I often find, and this has been through so many coaching sessions, even with my clients, is when they feel unseen. This tends to shut them down in intimacy. So, what does unseen mean? So it just basically means not acknowledging her efforts, not acknowledging her presence, or her strengths. And when I mean from an acknowledgement perspective, I mean from an objective perspective, right? So we’ll use efforts, for example. So let’s say your woman just finished organizing the kitchen, right? And most often, you know, our instinct, or for men at least, is to go in and say, Oh, wow, this is great. Good job, right? It’s to give that compliment.

But really, what she’s yearning for is for her efforts to be noticed. So it’s Wow. You put in a lot of work today. I could tell. You put in a lot of care. You know, your effort is definitely being seen. So it’s coming from a place again, very objective, focusing on facts, not making it about you, not putting any pressure to give a compliment. Because, as women, as you can imagine, we are people pleasers, right? We are sorry. We are people pleasers. We are caregivers. So the moment we get a compliment, we want to do it again. And there is this subconscious sense of pressure when we get compliments versus acknowledgement, right?

Kevin Anthony 15:35
And this should be easy for men. You would think, right, because we’re so good with facts. But men struggle with this thing. One of the things that I see men doing a lot is these really, like generalized, non-specific, like you said, Oh, good job, right? Okay, well, but what does that really mean? Did you notice the 10 different little things that you know, I did in order to create that good job, right? So, you know, if we use the example of, she made a nice meal, and it’s like, oh, that was a great meal, okay? But what if you said, what if you said something like, wow, I really appreciated the detail, like the way you added this spice, or this thing that really brought out the whatever? Like, you know, it’s one thing to say, great job. It’s another thing to share the details, because the details mean that you actually noticed how much effort went into it. Good job could mean you spent five minutes on it, or it could mean you spent an hour on it, but you don’t know which one it is, unless you actually share a few details that acknowledge the amount of effort it took to do whatever the thing is.

Kevin Anthony 16:41
So I would, I would think that for men, it should be easy, because we’re so good at the facts, and yet, at the same time, we tend not to verbalize them, right? So we think a lot more of those types of compliments in our head than we actually speak. That’s one thing I’m always helping men with, is like, when it pops into your head, verbalize it, let it come out of your mouth, rather than just thinking about it, and to try to be more specific with the compliments that you do share. But even though it should be easy, it’s often not, and this is where resentment builds up, right? Because she’s putting in so much effort to do whatever it is, you know? I mean, I just used a meal, but it could be anything. Maybe she’s the one who handles the finances in the relationship right, and you just take it for granted, like, Hey, thanks for making sure that’s taken care of. But maybe saying, Hey, I realize that it takes hours of time to go through all the receipts and to make sure it’s all tracked and to make sure the account is balanced. And you know, we have enough money for all the things that we need. So whatever the thing is, sharing those specific details, I think, is really important.

Zerina Derveni 17:46
Exactly. Yeah, and you actually said something that I was going to mention, it’s when she feels unseen, she feels taken for granted, right? So that resentment, you’re absolutely right, it will start to build up, right? The more and more you don’t see her, or you don’t acknowledge her effort or her presence or her strength, and that’s what you know, then that’s when a woman shuts down, right, and in intimacy. So she’s not getting that acknowledgement. She’s not getting that, that feeling of being seen, whatever it is, you know, whatever, whatever she’s she’s contributing in whatever way. So, it’s interesting. You’re right? It is facts, and yet, you know, that’s, that’s a category that men are so good at, and maybe just subconsciously, we don’t think to do it, because we’re just so used to it, right? We’re used to her doing this, and we’re used to her, maybe not vocalizing her effort, but that’s where, really, it takes that leadership skill for the man to kind of stand up and say, wow, you know, you’re really putting a lot of effort today. Or I saw this, and I noticed this, and this is all again, objective, right? This is, yeah, her doing.

Kevin Anthony 19:02
And you know, if it’s if any of the men listening are thinking like, I don’t, I don’t really get why you’re making such a big deal out of it, I’ll offer a few examples that maybe will make it easier for the men to really understand. Because as men, we feel like a lot of the time we are doing a lot of things around the house to contribute, yet often our women will criticize and complain about all the things that we don’t do, and therefore we feel, you know, taken for granted and not seen. Now, we wouldn’t, we wouldn’t phrase it from the point of view of, I feel unseen, because that’s not terminology that generally we would use. We would just feel that we would say something like, you know, she doesn’t appreciate, you know, all the things I do for this family or for this house or for her, or something like that. Like, that’s typical terminology that you would you would hear from the male side. But I offer that as an example to illustrate that it’s very similar. Like, if you can understand how it feels on your side, then you can understand how it feels on her side as well. Same thing with work, right?

Kevin Anthony 20:01
Because, you know, there were some things there that were similar to work. You know, you’re in the workforce as a man competing in, you know, this male-dominated workspace. And what would you prefer? Would you prefer if your boss, like, walks by in the hallway, pats you on the back, and says, Good job. Okay, well, that’s better than a lot of workplaces I’ve been in. But wouldn’t it be even better if maybe in the meeting with the other bosses, he says, I want to give some credit to, you know, Kevin, for doing X, Y and Z. Yeah, that’s a whole lot better than just saying great job and walking past you in the hallway, right? So those are ideas to sort of help illustrate to men. You know, if you’re having difficulty understanding why this is so important to women. Realize it’s important to you, too. You just see it up a little bit differently.

Zerina Derveni 20:48
Exactly. Yeah, and I think, you know there’s, there’s a similarity there. So when women feel insane, it’s very similar to when men feel criticized, right? They want to be admired. They want to be appreciated. And really, it’s kind of the same thing, like we want to be seen. We want to be valued again. We want your presence to be acknowledged with our efforts. So yeah, there is a similarity there where women, when they feel unseen, it’s similar to when a man feels criticized.

Kevin Anthony 21:19
Yeah, and I think it’s, it’s important to point out those similarities, because too often we focus on, you know, men are this way and women are this way, and we’re just so different, we’re never going to meet in the middle. Yeah, we are different from that, and that’s perfectly fine. Those differences, as we kind of talked about earlier, when we bring them together, create synergy. But also, we need to understand that we’re not as different as we sometimes think we are. We have very similar needs as humans. They just tend to show up a little differently.

Zerina Derveni 21:53
Exactly, I would agree.

Kevin Anthony 21:55
So let’s talk about something else that’s important for women. So important for women in intimacy, but also in other areas of life, and that is the need to feel understood. Can you talk a little bit about what what does that means? How does that show up for women? You know, how can men potentially do better at understanding women?

Zerina Derveni 22:21
Yeah, absolutely. So this is where men show up with presence versus pressure. So when a woman wants to be understood, we want to be listened to, right? I think oftentimes when we’re explaining a challenge or a scenario where we’re just emotionally overwhelmed, the first instinct for the man is to get in there and fix it right, provide a solution for her, which is very admirable. I just want to say, you know, any man that is doing that, there is a sense of of us deep down that we do admire, that, that desire, that leadership, of wanting to fix our problems, but where the issue lies is, there’s a sense of pressure, right? There is no presence that we’re yearning for. There is this pressure of like, okay, let’s fix it. Let’s do it. What we really want to do is we want to be listened to. I work with women, Kevin, and we need to sometimes go through the same scenario, 7, 8, 9, 10 times.

Okay, it just is what it is. And we don’t necessarily want to fix it right away. We’re still kind of gathering our thoughts, and we’re thinking about, you know, other possible scenarios in our heads before we actually want a solution. So this is a really important area where, as a man, if your woman comes and she’s complaining about a specific challenge, or, let’s just say, she had a disagreement with a friend, you want to basically be there with your presence and listen. And when we’re listening, we’re not listening to respond. We’re actively listening. And when you have a moment, after she finishes expressing her challenge or pain point, that’s where you can step in and you can ask her, do you want me to listen, or do you want me to help you come up with a solution?

Kevin Anthony 24:17
This is so huge, what you just shared. I’m hesitating because in my mind, it’s like I can’t even believe that there are still men alive in existence who don’t understand that a woman doesn’t always need you to fix things. And yet that is true for a lot of men, so much so that we need to reinforce that point here on the show, which is that sometimes she just needs to vent it. She just needs to move that energy. She just needs to speak it. She doesn’t really need anything else, like you said, if she just has somebody, preferably you know, somebody that she trusts, that can hold a container, to just hold that space and let her move through. Those seven or eight different things, then all is well, and one of the biggest mistakes men make is going straight into fix-it mode. It is what we do, like we fix things, we build things, we create things. That’s what the masculine does.

Kevin Anthony 25:13
But it’s not always appropriate when dealing with your woman to go straight into fix-it mode. And I loved what you shared. Which is that idea of, let her, you know, speak what she needs to speak, and then offer her. Would you like me to help you solve this? Or do you just want me to listen? Because if you’re unsure, that’s all you have to do. It’s that simple. Just simply ask her, what does she need? You made another important point, too, that I would love for you to talk a little bit more about, which is this idea of active listening. I’ve talked about it on the show a few times. I’ve had some communication experts on, but it’s always a good one to go over again. What does it mean to actively listen in comparison to what a lot of people do, which is listening to respond?

Zerina Derveni 26:01
So actively listening to me is just basically being present, absolutely present. You’re not gathering details so you can form a response in your head. What you’re doing is you’re focusing on the words that are coming out of that person’s mouth, and you’re actually showing empathy, right? So you’re, you’re, you’re taking in those words, you’re trying to understand from that person’s perspective what they are saying, and not making it about you at all.

Kevin Anthony 26:32
And that’s hard for a lot of people to do, because, you know, it’s one thing if it’s something that’s, you know, simple or easy, but when emotions come up, right? Well, especially if there’s some sort of disagreement in the couple, there’s a tendency to really only hear the words that you need to hear in order to form a response that somehow makes you Right, right? So it’s more of a defensive kind of strategy, like I’m not really listening to understand what you’re saying. I’m just listening to figure out what my defense is, right? Where are the holes in what you’re saying so I can get in there and exploit them, right? Which is not at all what you should be doing.

Kevin Anthony 27:14
You should be genuinely trying to understand where the person is coming from. What is it that they’re trying to convey? What is the need, the underlying need beneath what it is they’re trying to convey, which is an even deeper level of active listening? There’s one thing, like, okay, I want to understand the words that you’re saying, right? But as is often true with all people, and maybe even a little bit more so with women, is there’s an underlying need beneath those words that you’re also actively listening to try to understand what is the underlying need is here? And I think that’s a place where men struggle a lot. Is really listening in that way, and that’s why it’s just so important to understand.

Zerina Derveni 28:00
Exactly, yeah. And you could start with small steps, right? With actively listening, as simple as you know, just repeating what that person said, right? Repeating that sentence. I think that’s a good way to train the brain, not to go right away into reaction mode, or listening to respond. It helps you kind of stay in the moment, stay in the present, and actually listen to the words that are coming out by practicing this repetition of, if I heard you correctly, this is what you said, right? So I find that’s a really good tool that’s practical and can help you deepen that active listening skill.

Kevin Anthony 28:40
Yeah, that’s a really big one. This idea of repeating back, and I paused and hesitated a little bit again, because you have to, this is the type of thing that you should be talking about beforehand. When there isn’t an issue going on, right? It’s like, hey, let’s talk about how we communicate, let’s establish a few ground rules, right? Because what you don’t want to happen is, you know, she says something, and then you know, you repeat it back, and she’s like, I know what I said, right? Sort of thing. So there has to be an understanding there that the reason why I’m repeating this back is because I want to make sure that I actually understood you, right?

Kevin Anthony 29:23
But as long as you have that sort of ground rule laid in your relationship, like, hey, you know, in order to make sure that we’re in a clear understanding and agreement, you know, I might use some strategies like repeating back what you said, or asking you to repeat back what I said, right? It’s not because I think you’re stupid or that you’re not capable of understanding it. It’s just to make sure that we have clarity and we’re in agreement. There are so many times, and I’m sure you see this in your work too, when you work with people where two people are having an argument about something because they don’t even realize they’re actually saying the exact same thing. It’s just that they’ve used. Different languaging, and they haven’t taken the time to fully understand the point the other one was making. So they don’t realize they’re talking about the same thing. So they’re arguing, and you’re just sitting there going, but, but you’re you’re both saying the same thing, right?

Zerina Derveni 30:15
Exactly, right, right, just in different ways.

Kevin Anthony 30:18
In different ways, exactly. So that’s the idea of that seeking to understand is you can avoid that, because once you actually understand them, you’ll know, oh, we’re actually in agreement. We’re actually saying the same thing. We’re just talking about it from a different, different way. Yeah, is there something in men like because we talked about in the first one, that feeling unseen was similar to feeling criticized in a man, when it comes to not feeling understood. Is there something in men that’s similar that they could relate to to help them understand this?

Zerina Derveni 30:50
Yeah, I would think it’s similar to, you know, when a man withdraws. So let’s just say, you know, the woman is not being as open because she doesn’t want to communicate, because she thinks that her man’s not going to understand, or she’s not being her usual self, where, you know, the dynamic of the relationship is a bit more playful. So the moment she kind of shuts down, that’s, you know, because she’s not being understood. That’s kind of similar to when a man withdraws, where he feels like, you know, there’s not much of an open gateway there for him to try anything else, he kind of feels defeated. So he’ll withdraw and close down.

Kevin Anthony 31:35
Yeah. So, for the men listening, when you get to that place where you feel like she’s just not hearing you, and therefore it’s not even worth continuing anymore, and then you just shut down. That’s a similar feeling to when she’s feeling not understood by you. I think it’s, you know, like I said earlier, I think it’s good to sort of make those comparisons, because I think sometimes you just go, oh, oh, she feels like that when that happens. Okay, now I understand better. So we’ve got a couple more to talk about, but we’re about halfway through the show, so I want to take a break for an ad, and then we’ll come back. I want to talk about feeling emotionally unsafe. And I also want to come back to the presence piece, because you mentioned it, but we, we, I know this from personal experience. We need to dive deeper into what presence really means and how to become a master of presence, which is so important. So we will do that on the other side of this break.

Kevin Anthony 32:34
Men, are you tired of falling short, both in the bedroom and in your relationship? Do you want your woman to respect you and also crave your cock? Do you want to be the man she secretly brags about to all of her friends? What if you could become this man? What if you could not only master your masculine sexuality but also be the dream man who shows up for his woman in all the ways she desires? What if you could become so irresistible that she becomes addicted to you? If you are ready to become that man, then go to https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/men/. That is https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/men/. So a lot of these skills that we’re talking about, that that you should possess as a man in order to have that kind of relationship that you’ve been dreaming about your whole life are the types of things that I work one on one with men on so if you’re listening to this today and you’re just like, How the f do I do that? This sounds like a lot of work. I don’t understand what you guys are even talking about. If that’s you, please go to https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/men/ and sign up for a strategy call. I will help you figure all this out. Trust me, it’s important.

Okay, let’s get back to what she secretly wishes you knew about intimacy, and I mentioned before that short break about the need to feel, or I should say, the feeling of being emotionally unsafe. This is another one I would really love for you to talk about, because I did a whole episode on this show about what safety means as far as women are concerned. And I did that because I was noticing that for men, when they hear she feels unsafe, the very first thing they default to is physical safety, right? And so you’ll hear things from men like, well, she knows I would never hit her. She knows I would never do that. And I’m like, Whoa. Okay, yes, maybe. But safety goes so much deeper than just that. And that’s what I would love for you to talk about from a woman’s perspective. What does safety mean? What does it mean to feel emotionally unsafe? And then, of course, what you know how can men help create more emotional safety?

Zerina Derveni 34:54
Yeah, this one. This one is a very important one, and I think this is the foundation. Of intimacy really is for a woman to feel emotionally safe, and this is what can really deepen intimacy. So what does this mean? This is probably the number one conversation I have with women when it comes to challenges in their relationships, and oftentimes they find themselves performing right in a way emotionally, this is all happening in a emotional level, performing in a way that’s maybe more acceptable to their partner, where they fear maybe judgment, or they feel they fear that if they are a bit more emotionally vulnerable and open with just things that are actually, you know, happening in their mind, that their partner will kind of like judge them or shut them down because they don’t understand that level of depth, right?

So there have been numerous of conversations I’ve had with clients where they’re expressing to me that, oh, you know, like we’re we’re not there emotionally. So I don’t feel comfortable speaking about this, and I, as the coach, I’m always encouraging that, no, that’s the person you should be speaking to about it, right? Because that’s how you get to that vulnerable state in your relationship, and reminding women that, yes, it’s not going to be a success the first time. Yes, maybe the communication will not resonate with the men the right way, but you just got to keep you know kind of pursuing that. So when a woman feels emotionally safe, you’ll notice she’s much more open, she’s much more playful. She’ll be able to just be herself more without this fear of judgment or shame that I think a lot of women just feel, whether it’s culturally or socially. It can really depend on the individual woman.

But having that emotional openness where a man is calm, for example, right? He’s not reacting to things, he’s calm, that right away helps our nervous system shut down in a way that we can be, ah, relaxed, we can be more ourselves. So that’s one. Another one is when a man is steady, so powerful. And what I mean by steady is reliable, consistent. This is a very, very powerful characteristic trait, where I see women just feel much more relaxed, and then they can be much more emotionally vulnerable and open and feel comfortable, you know, expressing emotions to their men because they have the capacity to receive it. They’re not fearing that he’s going to judge or shut down and and this isn’t happening in such a harsh way when I say Judge, but there are components of just, you know, the men maybe not understanding.

So, feeling emotionally safe is a skill, not only for the woman to be able to communicate her emotional needs, and that’s where I really work with my clients, to feel comfortable and to be clear about the communication. But it also there is also that expectation that her partner will, you know, be open to listening and make her feel just much safer and relaxed about it.

Kevin Anthony 38:21
Yeah, this is one of those things that sort of creates a self-perpetuating cycle, in a sense that when a woman doesn’t feel emotionally safe because he’s not creating a container of emotional safety, she’s not vulnerable, right? She’s not opening herself up, she’s not sharing vulnerably at a deep intimate level, and when she’s not doing that, we as men feel that right, and therefore we basically don’t share at a deeper emotional level either, which is already a challenge for most men, but then just sort of reinforces that. Then the less we share openly and emotionally, you know and intimately with her, the less safe she feels, the more she shuts down and you see like it just it just keeps spinning around and around and keeping you locked in this place of never getting to that level of depth and intimacy that both of you, technically, are really craving.

Kevin Anthony 39:23
So it’s something to it’s something to be careful of. So you know, you’re working primarily with women, and one of the things that I see with women is that he’s not creating that right? So she’s like, Well, I’m not going to open up and be vulnerable. Or another thing that I often see is in past relationships. She’s been with men who weren’t safe, and so she learned to kind of shut down and hold that in. Now she’s in a new relationship with a man who technically is safe and creating emotional safety, but she’s still not letting him in, right? And the longer she stays there, the. The more he feels that there’s like a wall there that you just can’t seem to crack or break through or climb over or whatever, right?

And those things really negatively affect the relationship. So granted, both men and women have to do their work on their end, but the reason I bring that up is for the ladies listening. I know it can be hard, and I know it can be really vulnerable to feel safe enough to open up, but you opening up is just as important a piece in creating this level of intimacy that you both crave as it is for him to create safety so he can create all the safety in the world. But if you’re not allowing yourself to really open up and be vulnerable, which is like, one of the you know, sort of master skills of the feminine is to allow yourself to be vulnerable and receptive, then you’re still never going to achieve that level of intimacy that you’re really craving.

Zerina Derveni 40:56
Exactly, yeah, and I often find a lot of the women who are struggling with this are deeply in love with their partners, right? So it’s not a sense of not having that love or desire. It’s a sense of not being able to communicate because somehow they feel emotionally unsafe, or they don’t maybe comprehend that their partners will be able to reciprocate the same feelings, or leave that open space for those feelings. So it is one of those things where I highly recommend starting small, right? I think when you start in small steps, as early as you can in your relationship, to make that a little bit more of a norm, I would highly recommend that where, you know, some couples have kind of bottled it up for so long, and it just becomes a bit more challenging, really, to to to bring up all those feelings.

But I do get great feedback from women when men are just again, more calm in their presence. They’re more reliable. They’re holding that emotional space like that’s good enough for them to just get more comfortable, to be more emotionally open. And then I also encourage women to lead the emotional side of other relationships with men, right? I think just as nurturers, we should be leading more. And we’re the first to, you know, call our friend who’s down and help her emotionally. We’re the first to take care of our community. We’re the first to take care of our parents. Why wouldn’t we also do that in our relationship, which is the most important relationship, so giving the women the tools and the confidence to really lead, that I think really helps the dynamic of the man and woman normalize some of those conversations and space.

Kevin Anthony 42:51
I completely agree, and I’m so glad that you said that. I do feel that, you know, it is, you know, we have roles in relationships. They’re not hardened roles that can’t ever change, right? And there can be overlap, and they can switch from time to time. But in general, I do feel that it is really, really good role for the woman to really lead the emotional side of the relationship, because honestly, remember, we’re just really not that good. And I think, you know, when the woman does lead that emotional role, it can really help sort of open that up for us as men, especially if she’s also doing it in a very emotionally mature way and not an out-of-balance kind of way. I also just wanted to talk a little bit more, because I think this is really important. You mentioned a couple of specific ways, and I just sort of want to reiterate them, and then ask you if there are any other things.

Kevin Anthony 43:46
But when we’re talking about creating emotional safety in a relationship, from a man’s point of view, a couple of things you mentioned are ways that he could do that one is to be calm, right, to not overreact to things. I was actually having this conversation with a friend of mine the other day, because he has a little bit of a tumultuous relationship with his partner, and he’s very reactive to things, right, which, of course, then triggers her. And I’ve been telling him for well over a year now, you’ve got to calm yourself down. You’ve got to be the rock. You cannot be overreacting when you know she has some, you know, change in emotions or hormones or whatever you know. And it’s so hard for him to do, you see, as soon as she starts to sort of go, you know, into the crazy ways that sometimes women can be he just it triggers him and he loses it.

So I just think it’s super important for guys to understand that you can’t do that. I’m not telling you you can’t have emotions. I’m not telling you you have to excuse bad behavior or tolerate something that’s not healthy. That is not what I’m saying at all. All I’m saying is you. You have to be sort of like, cool under pressure, right? So, I don’t know, to just make up an analogy. It would be something like, you know, let’s say you’re a police officer and, you know, gunshots start firing out. Like, how do you react in that situation? Do you freak out and panic, right? Or do you keep a calm head and go, Okay, there’s a situation here that needs to be dealt with. What’s the best way to do it, right? And I think that’s, that’s what we have to understand as men. Because, you know, women will have fluctuations. They’ll have ups and downs. They’re hormonal creatures. Things are changing and shifting all the time, and that’s okay. That’s, this is why we talk about synergy, right?

And it’s like, this is your this is literally your job as a man is to be the freaking rock to calm things down, right? And I just see so many struggling with it. But I think maybe if they understood that by doing that, that actually creates a feeling of safety that allows her to simmer down, right? And I think that’s a part they’re missing. They think I just got to sit here and take it, and like it’s abuse or something. It’s like, no, no, no. You need to be that, right? You need to be the one, sort of, let me stop the boat from rocking so much, because as soon as she feels that, she will instantly calm down exactly.

Zerina Derveni 46:21
Yeah, and I think, you know, understanding just the way our mind works, like we are a chaotic nervous system, right? Even some of us who are the most stable or look like we’re the most emotionally stable, we still have a nervous system that gets triggered right away the moment we fear danger. Right now, I’m not saying you know you’re reaction is dangerous, but there is this subconscious alert system that goes on, and then we know how to, kind of like, protect ourselves or pull away or shift the topic. So a man staying calm is so powerful because it allows for our nervous system to just calm down, and then we can use our words much more rationally versus our emotions, right?

So I think if, if a man can really practice staying calm for the benefit of the relationship again, it will be a muscle for those that are not, maybe as familiar with with that state of mind, but really, if you practice it more and more, you’ll notice that, you know, your woman is opening up more, and she’s feeling much more emotionally safe. And you know, staying calm and steady, as I mentioned earlier, can also mean, you know, holding her right, like looking her in the eyes, that’s so powerful. And at first, maybe the few, the first few times, it can be a little bit intimidating, if that’s not a normal dynamic in your relationship. But again, starting with small steps, having her know that, hey, I’m here. I’m here to reassure you. We’re in this together. I got you no matter what you know. I think that reassurance, that emotion coming from absolutely no judgment, will really help her calm her nervous system and will really help her feel emotionally safe.

Kevin Anthony 48:19
Yeah, that’s that. I mean, those are master skills as a man, right? So be calm, be steady, hold her, look her straight in the eyes, all of those things that help calm her nervous system down. We have a few minutes left in the show. Let’s at least spend a few minutes talking a bit more about being present. This is a term that I use a lot. I have read an ad at the beginning of this show for the Power Mastery Course series. There’s a whole module in the sexual mastery course about what it means to actually be present as a man. I find that this is a really important thing to talk about. And I also find that a lot of men don’t truly understand what that means. I’m wondering if you could talk about, from a woman’s perspective, what it means for her man to be truly present, and how he can do a better job at it?

Zerina Derveni 49:15
So I think, you know, starting with the physical aspect, right, being present. It’s facing her right, looking at her. It’s having that body language that’s welcoming, that’s what’s again, you’re focusing on her. When you’re speaking to her, you’re showing up. You’re not distracted. Your focus is on her. So when you’re there, your focus is on her, and you’re making her feel seen, kind of going back to the first thing we talked about. But to me, I think it starts with just again, the physical body first, and then it goes into the dialogue, the communication style, and who are you? Listening? Are you paying attention to what she’s saying? Are you being focused? Right? So it would then go into that more of that communication dialog once the presence or the physical aspect of it is there. So that’s, to me, what being present is, it’s, it’s really being in a state of the actual present at the moment and not focusing on the future or what.

Kevin Anthony 50:29
Happens to a woman if she feels her man isn’t present.

Zerina Derveni 50:34
I mean, there’s frustration, right? She’ll shut down, maybe, maybe she just won’t feel as important or significant to whatever it is that they’re talking about. We definitely pay attention to that sense of presence or lack of presence. Now, whether we vocalize it or not, that’s a different scenario, but we definitely know when our man is actually paying attention to us versus when he’s just being there. And, you know, I think the idea here is not to be present 100% of the time. I mean, life doesn’t work that way, but definitely to get more in the habit of just when you’re going to be there, be there. I think it’s also a powerful tool that men can use. It’s like, look, I may not be around, you know, all day, but when I show up, my presence is there, and it just really helps us, you know, value that more, and, if not, respect our partner more when he is showing up in his full presence.

Kevin Anthony 51:34
Yeah, unfortunately, I feel like in today’s world, this is, this is kind of a lost art, because, you know, with all our technology and social media and you know, 22nd sound bites of everything, our ability to focus and really have an attention span has been severely compromised. And so you take a scenario where the average person, both men or women, is already struggling to really focus attention on any one thing at any time, right? And now you bring that into the relationship, right? Where men have also traditionally struggled with focus, you have a recipe for disaster, right? And it’s interesting that what you said, too, is that you know, when he is not giving his full presence to her, she notices it. This is so, so true. This is part of what I was, what I share in that module in the courses that I read, the ad for that I just mentioned, which is, you know, there’s no better example of how this plays out than during sex.

Kevin Anthony 52:40
Because during sex, there are many times where he might appear or think He’s present, because you’re having sex, like doesn’t get much closer and more intimate than that. But yet, mentally, he’s checked out, and he’s not really giving his full presence to them. So I always tell men, I’m like, the second you start fantasizing about some other woman or porn, or even, you know, trying to, you know, count something, or, you know, go over baseball stats because you’re trying to keep yourself from ejaculating. That takes your presence out of the situation, and you might be there right in front of her, face to face, you know, connected via the genitals, and yet she still feels that you’re not present and checked out. And I think sometimes men are like, how could that possibly be like in that scenario, you know? And it’s like, because there’s a quality there that’s that’s more than just the physical.

Zerina Derveni 53:35
The enthusiasm, right? When you’re present, there is a sense of enthusiasm that you can’t fake; it’s just there. And I think it could happen either through dialogue, through intimacy, right through intercourse, there’s, there is a sense of enthusiasm when you are present that’s shown, that’s, that’s genuine.

Kevin Anthony 53:57
And you can’t fake it. You really can’t fake it. Your presence is either there or it’s not. And, you know, women are like, if there was such a thing as a presence detector, you know, we have lie detectors. If there is such a thing as a presence detector, women would be human presence detectors. Oh, yeah, yeah. Immediately, like, immediately, you know? So guys, there ain’t any faking it. You’ve got to learn how to do this, right? You’ve got to learn how to give her your attention when it’s appropriate. So, as you pointed out, it doesn’t mean you have to give it to her all the time, like life doesn’t really work that way, but when it’s appropriate, you got to do it, right?

Kevin Anthony 54:40
Okay, I don’t know that we have enough time to talk about this, but I really wanted to ask you about it, so I’m gonna try anyway. We’ll see if we can squeeze it in, which is this idea of the three-dimensional relationship? Could you maybe just spend a couple of minutes talking about what is. A three-dimensional relationship?

Zerina Derveni 55:01
Yeah, so a lot of what we talked about today, really, it’s, it’s to deepen intimacy, and it’s to get your relationship on another level, right? I think a lot of us often work with the two-dimensional relationship framework, where it’s like, I do this, and you do this, kind of like the gender norms or you get comfortable with, okay? Well, I provide the emotional safety, she does, and the nurturing I do this. So the three-dimensional, it’s, it’s getting you out of that loop where it’s like, no, my woman’s needs are my needs. And then, from a woman’s perspective, it’s my man’s needs are my needs, right?

So it’s again, taking that relationship to another level that can only deepen intimacy and strengthen the bond, but it’s looking at from a perspective of your partner’s needs are actually your needs versus, you know, this kind of give and take or this systematic role that we can easily get into in our relationship. Just because it’s easier, it works better. So, yeah, that’s where the concept of three three-dimensional relationships comes in. It’s really taking it on another level and thinking differently, and putting your partner’s needs first and vice versa to get to this other level.

Kevin Anthony 56:26
Yeah, and everything that we talked about so far is how you get there, like, so, you know, that wasn’t a random question out of nowhere. It was like, when we’re talking about, you know, all of these things that women need. These are essential components to building that three-dimensional relationship that you just defined. I also want to point out to listeners that I think it was well by the last week when we’re recording this, it’ll be a few weeks apart, you know, when this actually airs. But I had another guest on recently who was saying, Is your relationship transactional or reciprocal? That’s the way that she phrased it. And I think that it’s, it’s basically the same thing that you’re describing here. Because transactional is that I do this, then you do that, and then I do this, and then you do that, versus this idea of reciprocity in there, right? Which is, my needs are your needs? Your needs are my needs? We’re working together all the time to try to have the best relationship we can have and to try to help each other be the best versions of ourselves that we can be.

Zerina Derveni 57:30
Yeah, no, I would agree. It’s very similar to that transactional analogy. So yeah, the three-dimensional really, it’s just taking it on another level and getting into the habit of prioritizing your partner’s needs, right? But that has to be reciprocated the other way around, too.

Kevin Anthony 57:48
Yeah, and, you know, I wanted to just point that out that it was similar, just because it’s repetition, the more times I have qualified experts on this show telling you the same basic underlying truth, hopefully the more it will sink in, right? And sometimes I feel like maybe I just need to connect the dots so that people understand that there are some core truths that you know that weave through every one of these situations. So hopefully people will get that.

Zerina Derveni 58:26
Yeah, and I hope you know the examples we went through today, they’re they’re practical, right? I think again, it’s a muscle and it’s being consistent and getting into those small habits, but they are definitely practical tools that anyone can implement and try and reap the benefits, really, right?

Kevin Anthony 58:47
So, yeah, that’s the goal. That is the goal. That’s what it’s all about. So that is a perfect time to tell the audience where they can find more about you and your work.

Zerina Derveni 58:59
Yeah. So you can find me on my website at www dot zarinalife coach.com, I’m also active on Instagram at Zarina Life Coach. But yeah, if you’ve got any questions, there is this contact form on my website, and that’s probably the easiest way to contact me.

Kevin Anthony 59:19
So and the link for her website is in the description, so just go check it out there. Zarina, I want to thank you for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge and wisdom and helping men better understand women and what they need. This. I don’t know if, if, if there will ever be a time when this is not necessary, but right now, in the time that we live, it is so critically important to help each other understand the other side that I just find that that perspective so so valuable. So, thank you for coming on the show and sharing it.

Zerina Derveni 59:58
Thank you so much for having me, Kevin. Appreciate it.

Kevin Anthony 1:00:02
All right, everybody,y that’s all the time I have for this week, and I will see you next week.

Kevin Anthony 1:00:13
I hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe, leave me a review, and share it with your friends, and for more free exclusive content, join me in the passion vault at https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault/. That’s https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault/. Thanks for listening, and remember, as Celine used to say, you’re amazing!