How To Cope With Stress In Relationship with John Gray

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the love lab podcast a safe place to get real about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts, Kevin Anthony and Celine Remy. And we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:27
Alright, welcome back to the love lab podcast. This is Episode 156. And it’s titled How to cope with stress in relationship with john gray. This, I think is going to be a great and fascinating episode. And I’m excited about it for a couple of reasons, but one of which is not so much because john gray is john gray. But because I was exposed to his work really, really early on in my life.

Kevin Anthony 0:55
And it really did have an impact. I first read men are from Mars and women are from Venus when I was in college, junior-senior year, I can’t remember which one this goes back into the early 90s. And I was assigned to read this book by a professor. I knew nothing about this, I was like 20, maybe give or take. And I actually loved it, I read the whole thing from cover to cover, which was not true of every book that was assigned to me in college.

Kevin Anthony 1:25
And it just really had an impact at a time in my life where I pretty much knew nothing about relationships other than how to mess them up. So I’m really excited to actually talk to john and to have a conversation about this.

Céline Remy 1:38
Absolutely. Me too. So let’s start with our sponsor ad will read John’s by and then get started because I’m just too excited. So if you want to join the secret club of men who are great in bed, then check out power and mastery at power and mastery.com it is the most complete sexual mastery training for men. Whether you want to last longer, increase your erections or have better skills in the bedroom, there is something for you at power and mastery.com.

Céline Remy 2:07
So if you haven’t yet heard of john gray, he is the author of the most well known and trusted relationship book of all time, and men are from Mars and women are from Venus, USA Today listed his book as one of the top 10 most influential books of the last quarter-century, John helps men and women better understand and respect their differences in both personal and professional relationships. His approach combines specific communication techniques with healthy nutritional choices that create the brain and body chemistry for lasting health, happiness, and romance. So welcome, john to the love lab podcast.

John Gray 2:46
Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here.

Kevin Anthony 2:48
Alright, so we’re just gonna dive right in. And what we’re really talking about in this particular episode, is how to cope with stress in relationships are really like how does stress affect people’s relationships? And the first question that we have may seem slightly off-topic, but it’s really not at all. Which is, it’s about the traditional roles of the man and the woman in a relationship.

Kevin Anthony 3:12
And so the first question is, how have the traditional male and female roles evolved. And I think it’s important to understand that because I think that has contributed significantly to the stress levels that people feel

John Gray 3:24
I would agree with you and how our roles have evolved. We live for 1000s of years men culture told men what to do, culture told women what to do. So you got in a relationship, you didn’t have to explain to your partner what they need to do. Women usually pick the guy who was a good provider, and you felt safe with him. That was enough. And she depended on that she needed that. So she had a lot of love for him. They didn’t have to take classes on communications. their expectations were different. They lived in a world of survival and security.

John Gray 3:58
And once we get into a place where anybody has the ability, the freedom and the to, to survive and be secure on their own that changes the dynamic of the relationship, because the old-fashioned relationship was men and women, are dependent on each other. And quite often, you know people who are young, they pick up a lot from men are from Mars, women are from Venus, but it’s really when you get in a relationship where you’re dependent on your partner are you have children even Boy, you really see the dynamics of men are from Mars, women are from Venus showing up because that’s a real relationship where you’re dependent on each other for something. Well, today, whether we have children or not, we have a higher need and the need is for emotional fulfillment.

John Gray 4:40
Now, Maslow talked about this so many years ago, that when your lower needs are fulfilled, then higher needs become just as important as your lower needs. I mean, you know, we all know if you try fasting, you get hungry, okay, that’s a need if you need food. So that’s your survival need and your security needs. If you’re afraid I can’t pay bills, I need money. This is a really strong meeting. Well, actually, when your consciousness is higher, which is what’s happened today, evolution is taking place at a higher need is there in our culture, and that is the need for emotional fulfillment. And so the priority in our relationships is emotional fulfillment. And so we have to learn new skills for that.

Kevin Anthony 5:23
Yeah, that’s actually a really fascinating take I wasn’t thinking that was how that question was going to be answered. But I really love that answer, because it really makes a lot of sense. So if we think about, like any period in time, in historical time, where say the arts flourished, why did they flourish? Well, they flourished because basic needs were taken care of, and people had the excess capacity to be able to invest in those things when they weren’t, you know, constantly worried about survival. So that’s actually a fascinating point that you bring up that the same thing happens in relationships, when you’re no longer worried about survival, you actually have different needs that show up now.

John Gray 6:03
And that’s a source of stress. If you ask the question about stress, the major source of stress is I feel ignored, I feel rejected, I don’t feel appreciated, I feel not good enough, I feel alone, I feel nobody loves me, and my partner is ignoring me. I feel like she’d never happy. These are, these are all emotional needs that we have. So as a therapist for 50 years, when people come in, what they focus on is the problems, the real problem underneath it is to identify the emotional need. That’s important, and how to address it in the right context.

Céline Remy 6:36
So what are the disadvantages and advantages of this evolution, I see that as women, we tend to be a little bit more in touch, maybe with the emotional side? So maybe it was easier than for the men at a certain point. But if I look around, and I see my friend’s relationship, I see that both men and women are kind of struggling equally in their relationship.

John Gray 7:00
Oh, yeah, it’s, the whole world is crap but this is like, we have to figure this out. And so the way I explain it, and this is, you know when I try to talk about gender differences, it’s so often for many people, it’s incorrect. You shouldn’t say men and women are different. Of course, we are as so many differences, and I’ve written books on all those differences but did so to disarm audiences so they get the gist of what I’m saying, It’s okay if you’re a woman, and you’re more masculine. And it’s okay if you’re a man, and you’re more feminine.

John Gray 7:33
But if you’re not experiencing happiness, and you’re not experiencing fulfillment in your relationship, almost always, the man is too far on his female side, and the woman is too far on her male side. And I draw that conclusion because we talk about stress. Okay, first of all, when you’re experiencing stress, we often think of the outer world as too much, you know, not enough money, people are made to be there’s traffic, there are problems in the culture, that’s our sources of stress, but there’s it how we react to it, that’s what I’m talking about, are we able to relax in a traffic jam and put on some nice music and be happy Are we all in a hurry and rushing around and we can’t feel relaxed.

John Gray 8:14
So it’s our reaction inside. So when you measure, that’s a hormone called cortisol, that’s the stress hormone. So when your body’s making cortisol, if you’re a woman, your estrogen levels will be low at that time, and your testosterone levels will be a little higher or much higher for you. And if you’re a man and you’re feeling stressed, your estrogen levels will be higher, and your testosterone will start going down. Now, those are new terms for a lot of people. So let me say it again. estrogens a female hormone, testosterone is the male hormone, I have both. Everyone has both. But when a woman is happy and fulfilled, her female hormone estrogen will be about 10 times higher than a man’s. And when a man is happy and fulfilled, and generous and giving and focused, his testosterone will be at least 10 times higher than the average woman. So this is real simple, you know, as new terms are used to get a sense, is as a man when I’m stressed, regardless of what’s going on in my life, okay, if I’m stressed, my testosterone is too low, and my estrogen levels are getting high. And if you’re a woman and you’re stressed, your testosterone is going up, and you’re getting an imbalance of estrogen. And now it’s a little more complicated with women.

John Gray 9:30
There’s another hormone called progesterone. They what has to be more than the other different times of the month, but still, both of those are female hormones that play a lot on a woman’s mood, how she feels at peace. Does she feel the love? Does she feel turned on? Can she feel romantic? I give you an example. I was I, my daughter, Lauren, who’s your age and she teaches classes for women only at my website, and I was helping her edit Okay, she’s brilliant. She’s better than me. Why? Every generation is better. Okay, so here she is. And she’s saying, and then men can be more romantic. If you do certain things, he’ll be more romantic. And I said, Well, what is your partner do this so romantic. And she goes, oh, I don’t even have to ask he empties the trash.

John Gray 10:18
You see, if you’re feeling happy and fulfilled within yourself, and you can ask for help and get it in your relationship and you feel loved, then all whatever he does is romantic. But if you’re not experiencing feelings of hormonal imbalance inside yourself, then he empties the trash and your reaction to it. Well, he should empty the trash, I cooked him dinner, you’ll see that you can see the difference in the feeling. And this is a reality.

John Gray 10:44
One of the ideas of men from Mars, it’s so popular, and it’s a wake-up call for men and helps women as well. But it’s understanding that with women, little things make a big difference. See, men tend to think if I do something big, I get a big result. And that’s true. But he doesn’t realize that if you do little things, you get almost the same response. I can bring your 50 roses, and oh, so happy. Thank you, honey, oh, special occasion, or I can bring a gardenia. And she goes, Oh, sweet. That’s what you brought me on our first date, you know, it’s just you, you can get the same response. And what is the response when a man does a romantic gesture, their response is a surge of estrogen. But now let’s look at a bigger picture. Now that I understand hormones, I didn’t understand hormones when I wrote the metaphor, Mars,

John Gray 11:31
I just knew that men, you keep thinking I do big stuff. And my wife should be happy with me. Lots of little stuff is the key is the kind of things you did when you were dating her. that builds her estrogen. And that keeps her happy and able to focus on what’s good in her life. Rather than what happens when we’re stressed, we’re producing the stress hormone, the brain goes into an automatic mode of looking at what’s wrong rather than what’s right. And this is the problem, we have this high-stress level in our lives. And you look at regardless of what’s going on in the outer world, it’s what’s going on and how we react to it. And so if we can learn as women can learn, how can I use communication skills to increase my estrogen? How can I make different choices in my life to increase my estrogen along with my sense of independence, nothing wrong with that is finding the balance.

John Gray 12:22
And before I finished on that part when I talk about men being on their female side, most men don’t relate to that. Because it’s not like you’re becoming a woman, it’s that you’re going to female hormones. So when you’re sitting there passively watching TV, you’re producing female hormones. When you’re playing a video game passively, you’re producing female hormones, when you’re drinking too much beer, you’re producing feminine hormones. When you’re taking marijuana, you’re producing female hormones, whenever a man or a woman is dependent on something outside themselves for happiness, is that dependence that puts you in the estrogen mode. Because when you depend on something, you’re receptive to it, you’re open to it, you’re opening your heart to that, and that’s making you happy.

John Gray 13:08
So men have to have a balance of that nothing wrong with being dependent on things as long as not too much. Nothing wrong for women to be independent. Look, what I do, look what I can accomplish, as long as it’s balanced with and I can depend on someone. And we all have blocks, women have blocks to receiving men have blocks to doing and that’s the value of relationships can help us to overcome those blocks. Because we love somebody.

Kevin Anthony 13:32
Yeah, you know, if you’re watching the video on this, I’m over here, like a bobblehead, you know. I want to touch on one part. So I like how you stated, you know, when you wrote men are from Mars, women are from Venus, you didn’t have a clear handle on the hormones. And what I think is so great about adding that into the conversation now is, like you said, certain people will get turned off by Oh, men are like this, and women are like that. But when we’ve got the science behind it, and we can show scientifically, without a doubt that there are changes in hormones that are happening, it’s much easier for people to understand, oh, okay, I get it. Now I see why things are different. And I wanted to go, you know, there’s, there’s a topic that we talk about a lot on our show, which we call polarity, a lot of people talk about polarity.

Kevin Anthony 14:22
Right. And, and so I was wondering if you could comment a little bit more because what you were saying is when women are stressed, their estrogen goes down, that testosterone goes up, and then vice versa, right. So what you start to see then is two people who were very polarized start to come closer together in the middle somewhere. And I was wondering if you could just talk about what effect that would have on a relationship?

John Gray 14:45
Well, first of all, let me say something about balancing hormones and everybody’s got their own unique balance. So like what you were saying is, I might say, you know, men really liked to compete, okay, they like sports and they like to compete. Now. Not all men are that way. But competition is going to produce testosterone. And women need testosterone is just too much competition will be if it’s too much, and she’s not balanced, but cooperation and nurturing and harmony and being at ease and comfortable. The opposite of I got to work hard here, I’m going to win, I’m going to do it. I mean, think about what competition is, it’s I want to win and you lose a beat you. And you know, a lot of people say, Oh, we should never feel competitive. Of course, we should.

John Gray 15:32
But we should put it in a context, which works for everybody. And that would be the win-win situation, which is I want to get what I deserve. And I’m going to do my very best to get it. That’s a more elevated version, but I’m always competing with myself. And that competition does stimulate whatever form it is, it’s going to stimulate testosterone. And nothing wrong with women doing that, except you, see, what happens for women that spend a lot of time competing in sports is that they lose their fat, they’re more muscular, and they can generate fat produces estrogen, they can’t make enough estrogen to get pregnant, you need, you need your estrogen levels to double normal levels to become pregnant. That’s the ovulation time. Now, if it doesn’t double, you can’t get pregnant. And when it starts to double, that’s where you feel romantic.

John Gray 16:20
So when women have higher estrogen when it starts to double, that’s when they’re putting out a pheromone, that makes men very interested in her and it awakens a man’s attraction to her. And when men are producing a lot of testosterone, he puts out a smell of pheromone that awakens a woman and raises her estrogen. Hence you see the movie where the guy you know, risks his life and saves the woman in distress, I need help, I need help. But he provides the help, boom, they have great sex afterward, that huge chemistry, it may not last but they generated it at that moment. And so what I’m trying to teach people is how to sustain polarity in a relationship where we’re authentic. And if a woman, you know the if a woman is authentic, and in balance, she’s gonna have higher estrogen than testosterone, she’s gonna have higher progesterone than testosterone. And if a man is in balance, he will always have higher testosterone than both those female hormones. So this is our authentic self.

John Gray 17:20
Now, I love that you talked about polarity, you probably do it in the same way I do is that everyone knows at the beginning of a relationship, there’s like this excitement, there’s this thrill. And then it goes away. And the reason it goes away is we don’t have polarity. It doesn’t have to go away if you have polarity. So the newness novel experiences produce dopamine and dopamine then creates estrogen in women and testosterone in men you feel this chemistry.

John Gray 17:46
But as soon as the newness goes away, the miliary it sets in newness is dopamine. serotonin is familiarity. You know, you know what to expect, you feel comfortable, you feel at ease, you start taking off your clothes, you know, you have to protect yourself so much, so you feel safe. And you know what to expect, you know what to expect. And we all want that, you know, I feel so comfortable. I come home and I’m a hero every time. I just want to say to women, wouldn’t you love to come home and just feel so safe, you could express yourself, that expressing yourself and feeling heard produces estrogen lowers your stress. On the other side of this, if you’re a man, you come home and you come home to somebody who’s happy to see you with no intention to change you

John Gray 18:33
want to have a life that is and this is what’s possible once we learn to balance our hormones inside. Because when we are producing stress hormones, our brain we go into another part of the brain that says, look at what’s wrong that has to change. Look at what’s wrong that has to change. The other side of that is when you’re not stressed, you can look at what’s good and be grateful for it and how can I make it better from a positive feeling as opposed to being happy, it has to change and relationships can trigger these hormones so easily. I mean, I can just have a successful day and feel on top of the world come home my wife disapproving of me, you forgot to call me You left your shoes out. Your socks are on the floor. How could you forget the dishes are so dirty, you can’t even clean them. any of that stuff. Superman just crashes down, okay, just like that testosterone goes down.

John Gray 19:25
And a woman you know, all day long. She’s busy on her male side. She wants to come home and say, Oh, I was awful today. You know what? So someone so said this and so and so said this and they didn’t even do that. He says, Well, you got a buck up, honey, that’s the work world or it says we shouldn’t get upset about that stuff. That’s just the way it is. You got to accept it the way it is. Then after a while, she won’t talk. And she doesn’t talk she doesn’t get to learn by sharing deeper levels of myself and my emotions. I can actually neutralize my stress without having to change the outer world. See, this is the mastery of life. If I’m stressed, how can I remove the stress without having to change anything in my external world, I can ask for help. But if I’m not getting it, I know how to do it for myself. And that’s feeling independent, along with feeling dependent.

Céline Remy 20:14
That’s a huge shift because, for most people, that self-awareness does not really happen. And I love that you bring this up about the fact that taking responsibility that it is your inner environment that makes you react a certain way. And if you could just change that inner environment, you will react differently. But I also love the fact of understanding that, yes, there’s this independence, but then having that support from somebody else does not make you less it actually will enhance your chemistry. And I think it’s, it’s a beautiful place to be in, I will say that I don’t need a man, but I want a man. And so I think this is why our relationship is so thriving because I choose to welcome him and I welcome his support. But I know I could do anything for myself, but it’s so much nicer when he does something.

Kevin Anthony 21:09
And you actually say those things a lot. You’re like, I know, I could do this myself. But I really like it when you do it for me. And it makes me happy to do it for you. You know, another thing that we do, john, that’s related to what you were talking about, is we have kind of a rule here in the house that if somebody’s out, and the other one’s home, when that person comes home unless you’re in the middle of a meeting or an interview or something like that, we stop whatever we’re doing, and we come and greet the other one and say hello, and like we’re happy to see each other and all that.

Kevin Anthony 21:37
And it really is a huge shift, because I could relate when you were describing like you just had you made some awesome thing happen at work, you know, and you’re on top of the world and you come home and all you get are complaints. I mean, we have all been there before. And it is massively deflating, it’s like somebody just burst your balloon, you know. So yeah, it’s so much better to have that like that just

John Gray 22:03
You brought out two things right there, I just want to underline them. One is you come home, and nobody’s trying to change you. And that’s, particularly for the guy. But the other side of it is what you just said, which is perfect, which is we’re going to stop whatever we’re going to do, and we’re going to greet each other. So this is what I learned in my marriage with Bonnie and I talked about her in present time, but she passed a few years ago. And she’s still in my heart And so much of what I learned I learned from her and our relationship, and men are from Mars and beyond Mars and Venus. So I’ve come home, and she would complain to me at one point in the marriage, you know, the kids don’t listen to her. They always listen to what I say.

John Gray 22:42
And so I thought about that. And I thought, Okay, let me be a role model of someone who can listen to her. And I looked at where am I not showing respect for her? Because she was one stage, she was doing most of the cooking. So she was cooking meals and she’d say, okay, dinner’s ready, come to dinner, and I’d be on the computer. And I just sit there continue on, so I’ll be in in a little while. And then the kids would go in. So and another thing I used to do was I’d come home I have these little children, they just run at you they love you so much. You know Daddy’s home. Finally, somebody else’s here other than mom knew exciting. You know you don’t do anything. But you know, it’s just like they run in my arms are so happy to see me. And I’d play with them, whatever. And Bonnie would be busy making dinner.

John Gray 23:29
Okay, so I thought let me make two changes, okay. I when she said, dinner’s ready, I set up, let’s get up, get in there right away, and I get up no matter what I was doing in an instant, I would go in and have dinner and the kids saw when mom asked for something, get jumps. And when I would come home, always the first thing kids would come at me. And after a few weeks of training, they’d say mom’s here. Mom’s there. Mom’s not here. Because they knew the first question out of my mouth was going to be Where’s mom. And before, uh, you know, they could jump on me or whatever. But I would go right to her and give her a big hug. And they would see mom’s number one. And you know, that’s an example of something that we’re not aware of is that how much more women need, and I know you’re into want and you can want it but actually deep inside, you have an emotional need to feel respected. That feel number one, they feel honored to feel understood. They feel that somebody cares about what you’re going through. And those because when someone treats you that way, and you want them to treat you that way, because in all of our ones, ultimately the healthy wants come from a true need and side that’s that need for emotional fulfillment. And by providing that little change, the kid started listening to her more. They just needed an example of that.

John Gray 24:45
Of course, she was happier that I saw that she was happier. And I started realizing another little thing about you know, the little things make a big difference is if she asked me to do something, and it was something I could do within like it was like a five-minute run. If I could do it within a period of five minutes, I would stop whatever I’m doing, and just jump and do it. If she said, you know, the lawn needs to be mowed, I see I’ll get to it on Saturday, you know, I get to it. For me, mathematically, I get one point for anything I do, I give her a hug, I get a point. In terms of an estrogen point, if I come home and find her first I get a hug, I give her a hug. That’s a point I found her first. That’s a hug. I offered to help her in some way. That’s a point I noticed you got your hair cut. That’s a point I see her I hear her. She’s talking to me. I say to her, you know what helped me understand that better. Honey, tell me more, tell me more. That’s the point. And every time I get to say it, that’s another point. Because see, just like, you know, I can look at how many likes I get, you know, you want more, and we all want. That’s it. In terms of our work world, it’s okay to want more and more and more.

John Gray 25:54
But in relationships, often we men don’t have the correct attitude, it’s okay for her to want more, it’s okay to her. But you have to just not get upset with her when she’s upset. And then she’ll want more and she can still be upset with she’ll still be happy with what she has. And that’s kind of like a lesson on a higher emotional when you’re not when you’re in touch with your emotional needs. And you’re starting to get them fulfilled, then you develop something called delay gratification, you trust that I can get what I need, I don’t have to have it now. And that’s our higher brain function that we can exercise in our relationships.

Kevin Anthony 26:29
Yeah, and I love all those examples that you gave, because really what they are are examples of what you talked about earlier, which is doing more small things all the time. And I’ve never really thought about it exactly in the terms that you put it but I’m pretty much the same way. If she asks me to do something for her, if I can do it quickly and relatively effortlessly, I will do it right away. And it’s only the bigger things that I’ll put off later. And I don’t think a lot of men realize just how important these things are.

John Gray 27:00
It’s the feeling I get a response. You know, the responses. You heard her and you’re going to take action. There’s something about men who take action emergency man to the rescue, you know, the hormonal response to it. You see, this goes below the conscious mind before the logical mind. You should think, Well, look, I’m only doing a little thing, it should only get a little response. I give you 50 roses, I should get 50 points. No, you get one point of estrogen. Right? That’s wonderful. It comes back down, you know, you get one point every time. One rose, one rose, one compliment one attention.

John Gray 27:35
For me, it became a logical thing to give her four hugs a day, every time you hug a woman for six to 10 seconds, she’s gonna get a surge of estrogen at some point. So I find her that’s respecting her honoring her. She’s number one. These are little things that we can learn that generally speaking when people say how do you bring back the love? What did you do in the beginning when you felt that and often, often you’re exercising her being more on the female side, him being more on the male side. And that’s where romance comes. That’s that polarity.

John Gray 28:07
Now you asked the question about earlier? And I didn’t answer it I was sort of giving a foundation for is that what happens when, when he’s more on his female side or she’s more on her male side. You know, what happens there is that when she’s on her male side, and he does something to help her come back to her female side. Then right at that middle point, there’ll be a spark of flow, creativity, and romantic feelings higher experience, because there’s a balance point is the so when I’m helping her come back, that’s actually the most meaningful thing. Her doing things to produce estrogen is really important for her. But then when she goes to a male side from being on the estrogen side, she’s going to find that balance point. That’s very ecstatic. That’s very fulfilling. That’s why women in the 60s, Oh, you know, they were just so ecstatic going through their independent side and memory just so I was there you know, I was growing my hair out and we love you know, all about love peace get high, you know, totally not responsible for life at all.

John Gray 29:12
But, but I was going too far to my female side, and it feels ecstatic. And then it doesn’t seem to go too far. We want to use have to stay connected to the right balance within ourselves. And it fools you. Because if you’re way on one side and you’re moving to the other, right, that midpoint, it feels really, really good. Just like just because something feels good. As you continue going in that direction. There’s momentum. Does it mean as good for you? Like I can. People always say, Well, I don’t feel this way that you’re talking about and I said, Well, if you’re feeling stressed, you’re out of balance and the fine balance never feels good. doesn’t feel good right away. It’s like you can I love ice cream right? And if I eat too much ice cream, or they and I get a bat belly. That’s just what my body does at the age of 70. So I can eat as much ice cream as I go when I was a kid, that’s just a discipline I have to follow if I want good health, you know if I want to feel good about myself, but boy, if somebody said to me, and I didn’t know it made me fat, you shouldn’t eat that ice cream. I go, oh, but it’s natural, it feels good, natural always feels

John Gray 30:19
good for you. So I feel really good on my male side says a woman I don’t feel comfortable going, sharing my feelings and opening up. I go, yeah, nobody does if they’re not good at it. But you have to learn how to do it, you have to learn how to be vulnerable. And that is the emotional need that women have today more than ever before. And relationships need her emotional vulnerability, not his, what what you need from him is steadiness and entrust and focus and attentiveness which eventually will allow him to provide greater caring and compassion. Women awaken the feelings in men. If women are in touch with their emotions, a man will connect with you right away.

John Gray 31:00
A simple example. You say, oh, come home, and you’re talking Your husband is Oh, my office was awful today, you know, I had to do this, they forgot to do this. I don’t feel like I’m being appreciated, I should have gotten that job, that person didn’t talk to me. Okay, a lot of things happen. To me, a lot of things happen. And I don’t get upset because I’m a guy when I’m experiencing stress. And this is a difference in stress. Men tend to detach more under stress, women tend to attach more than us, they have an emotional response. And this is measurable in the brain. Even when adrenaline is being produced the early stress hormone, women will have eight times more blood flow to the emotional part of the brain, and a man will have less. So we detach. So all day long. We have phrases we use and women pick up on these when they’re on their male side, which is can’t change it, no big deal. Don’t worry about it. So what am I going to do about I’ll handle it tomorrow, I’m going to go watch TV.

John Gray 31:54
See, these are mechanisms for men to push their emotions to the side and build their testosterone. And if he doesn’t do that, and some men don’t have permission to do that don’t know how to do that don’t have the competence to do that. Then they’re on their emotional side. And they just feel needy and angry and upset and dissatisfied and depressed. All depression in men is estrogen and low testosterone. Anytime you stop talking, and this is one simple thing is stop talking and stop trying to change anything. And just that’s called meditation. You know, people that we should all be talking, I know, we should not be talking particularly men, when they’re upset. It’s okay to talk when you’re not upset. I’m not against men being vulnerable and open and sharing. But not when you’re upset with your partner. And not when you’re using negative emotions to change your partner. That’s primitive behavior, we have to look at that. And women do it more than men.

John Gray 32:52
But once relationships get triggered, then men do it more than women. See, the dynamic here is when the problem is little men have no emotional response. But when the problem is big, men have a much bigger emotional response. Isn’t that interesting? is because when the problem is big, the only thing that makes her problem big is I don’t know what to do. I don’t know, if I know what to do is not a big deal. So when men lose confidence, their testosterone is going down, then their estrogen surges. And then they feel angry, they feel heard, they feel vengeful, they feel jealous, all these lower things that we’re trying to rise above only occur in men when their testosterone is down and their estrogen is up. So that happens to me I get angry and upset about stuff.

John Gray 33:37
So what do I do? I stopped talking. The second thing I do, I do something that will increase my testosterone. And, you know, for me, because I learned Transcendental Meditation 50 years ago, and I’ve learned a lot of stuff since. But I learned how to quiet my mind how to forget my problems. And that’s basically what men instinctively do anyway, which is, well, nothing I do about it. So forget it. Try saying that to your wife.

Céline Remy 34:04
No, no, no. We got to talk about this.

John Gray 34:04
Because talking and feeling heard, it’s not just the talking, but it’s the talking and feeling heard is connection. And that’s what women need. Most of all, I need connection, but not as much as a woman needs it. Now if some man says to me, I need connection more than my wife, I’d say you’re more on your female side, and she’s way on her male side. So we don’t know who we are till we know who we are. And I guarantee you, you don’t know who you are, and the moment where you’re stressed. You are disconnected from your authentic self. So let’s start learning new ways of being even though it may not feel natural at first.

Céline Remy 34:42
So one thing that was huge that you say that I wanted to reiterate is that we need her emotional vulnerability and sharing more than we need his and this is huge, because with a lot of our clients, even when I have male clients and they’ll come and they want to target I’m sure there’s this part. But really what I need you to step into is into being a man of your word, keeping up with your actions like all of these are that will boost your testosterone rather than go more into your touchy-feely expressing this because this is a massive turnoff as a woman with, we want that until we get it and then we’re like,

John Gray 35:25
exactly right? Women all say, Oh, I want this emotionally unavailable man and you get it and you go, Oh, that’s because he’s going to as female, it pushes her further out of balance into her male. So here’s a little thought for people who don’t normally think when you’re listening to someone, you’re producing testosterone. And when you’re unless you’re talking to solve a problem, that’s different. But if I’m listening to share your feelings, I’m my testosterone is going up. And it will go up more. If I understand that women have a greater need than a man to be heard. You say men if I feel like I’m doing something meaningful, my testosterone goes up. Most men don’t know how meaningful it is to women.

John Gray 36:07
And not all women, though, is to be able to share whatever’s inside with somebody who’s being present for you, you know, being present and asking questions and caring, caring about what you feel, without trying to change how you feel. See, that’s the key to it, instead, understand what she needs, is that she is sorting it out inside herself. This is one-way men can understand it is is that she needs to talk about things and sort of bring it out and see it. And she’ll sort it out on her own. And so if you hear her without trying to sort it out for her, she’ll be able to just explore it, and then share it, and then she feels better afterwards.

John Gray 36:46
And that’s what I learned 30 years ago, when I sat in front of actually was learning, and 40 years ago when I would sit and listen to women in therapy. And I practice what I was teaching because women said I want them to fix it right then. So teaching, that’s one of the big ideas of men for Mars is just listen, men don’t do anything except seek to understand, be curious, seek to understand that’s what she actually needs, even if she doesn’t know it. Because often women will say, Well, what should I do? Then you need to say, Well, this is a big issue, I need to understand it better. Eric, they’ll have to jump right into it. So we listen. And what

I learned is by being a good listener, I had a waiting list of women that came to me for counseling, okay, we came famous where I was counseling in those days, women would come and after 10 sessions, I wouldn’t see him anymore because they didn’t have much to talk about. I say I’m teaching you how to do this in your relationship. I don’t want you to be dependent on me. And now some women would say it’s interesting, playful thought here. Why is it that you’re such a good listener? And my husband isn’t. He’s the one who loves me.

John Gray 37:51
And I said three reasons. One is I hear you and you’re, you’re basically complaining a lot about your husband. me complaining about your husband, I don’t take anything personally. So I feel like I’m better than him. So it’s nice to listen to. That one is your you’re not complaining about me, too. And so my testosterone doesn’t go down to you’re paying me Okay, so my testosterone goes up, I’m doing my job, I must be a value because you want to pay me now your husband, what payment does he get? He gets complaints, your basic and he doesn’t need money. But he needs the biggest payment for a man is someone who’s not trying to change him but appreciates what he can provide. So you’re basically not paying, you’re paying me you not complaining about me. And it’s only 15 minutes, okay? It’s not all the time.

John Gray 38:46
So if a woman can take that little piece of information, I would share that and I point out to them that complaining is the worst communication skill that there is, if we could just understand that. And now we have the brain science to point it out, which is if you use discontent, negativity, to get what you want. That’s what a complaint is, you know, I’m not happy with you, you did this and you….. I want you to pick up your socks you don’t pick up your socks.

John Gray 39:10
So what you’re doing is you’re communicating an emotional frustration or disappointment or upset with him using negative emotions in order to motivate change that changes your brain. So when you want more your brain goes focuses on what is it I’m not happy with and brings up negative emotions. And so what happens is so many women experience these automatic negative thoughts, automatic negative thoughts, automatic worries, automatic discontent, so many things to be unhappy about. And men kind of go How could somebody love me and have so many things to be unhappy about? It just doesn’t make sense to us. And that doesn’t make sense to women either.

They think if he would just change it would go away. But what creates that negative loop is using negativity to get what you want. Anytime you lose negativity, to get what you Want, the brain changes and it goes, more blood flow, more wiring goes to the part of your brain that sees negativity, rather than the part of your brain that sees positivity. And that’s what you want. It’s not like you ignore negativity, but then positivity comes in to see how it’s going to get solved. or looking at what else you have to compensate for the imperfection.

John Gray 40:23
So many times I’m, I’m in I live in Mill Valley, it’s a very up to do well to do place. And, you know, a woman comes to my session, and I’m listening to her and she’s telling me, you know, we’re going on our vacation to Paris, where we have another apartment there. And we have this wonderful, my husband has done this great vacation plan. But suddenly, our two nannies got sick. So what am I going to do?

And she’s so unhappy in her life because she doesn’t have the nannies they want to get to do this is called high-level problems right now with her husband, who listens to what’s gonna think, what do you got to complain about? You know, you’ve got everything any other woman would dream of? Are you kidding? What’s the big deal, let’s just hire somebody there, don’t worry about it, we’ll fix it, you know, what’s the big deal we should be happy with. But she’ll become more unhappy and more grounded, often more resistant into her unhappiness, because he’s not going to take the time that I take in therapy because I’m being paid, I understand it, I’m not being blamed, to be able to say, well help me understand that better.

John Gray 41:24
And let her talk about it. And then by the end of the session, she does, it’s going to be okay, I’ll just find somebody else, I’ve got a friend, take out an antibody, bring them they’ll want to come I can bring a friend, the solutions appear, her feelings become more positive if she can just sort it out without somebody judging her making her wrong for what we would see as men as an overreaction, as a lack of gratitude for what you have, instead of no matter how good life gets, you’re always gonna look at something negative, there’s always the negative side of it, you just don’t want to get stuck in that side. And one of the ways people get stuck in the negative is by using negativity to motivate other people.

John Gray 42:04
So if you’re angry to get what you want, you’re just going to be an angrier and angrier person, and you’re not going to get what you want. And if you do get what you want, it’s not enough, they won’t be enough because your brains on the side of the brain that says not enough, as opposed to plenty. And that’s what we want to have a balance of I have plenty. And it’s not enough, I want more. So I’m wanting more from a place of appreciation and gratitude for what I have.

Kevin Anthony 42:29
That is one of the things you do so well Celine, I think you are actually a master at is using positivity instead, instead of negativity. I think it’s one of the true gifts that you bring when you help women just like john does, because to us as men, that constant complaining, it’s like 1000 daggers in the back, you know, it just over and over again, it really, really affects us in a negative way. But when you just flip that script around, instead of saying, Why didn’t you do this and simply say, you know, if you were to do it like this, or do this at this time, here’s how it would benefit me, I would feel so much more relaxed, or I would have more time to you know, rub your show or whatever it is just flipping that around, makes 100% difference to us in using the positivity versus the negativity. And that’s one of the things I think that you do really

John Gray 43:21
well. I can tell you’re beaming with estrogen. Your smile, it’s in your smile, I see it there as learning to use those skills. That’s your feminine power. Okay, this isn’t me. You know, everybody’s talking about empowerment for women. And yes, they’re on their male side, they, that’s the male energy empowerment, look what I can do. Look what I can accomplish, look what I can achieve. That’s our male side. What is female power?

John Gray 43:50
Most people have no words for that. If you’re a female empowerment class, what would it be? Actually what it would be something like if people watch that movie, The Secret, you know, which is using your attitude, and your positive feelings to generate a frequency out there, which reflects what’s inside of you. That was a whole big movement. And it’s impractical if you just look at that because that’s just one part of life. But that’s the female power, which is your attitude determines what you get. Okay, a positive attitude, you will always get more Love is the answer.

And so what is if we look at in terms of male power, is Look what I can do. Female powers Look what I can get other people to do for me. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. This is so great. You know you get a guy to do stuff. He wants to do it rather than feel like I have to do it to make you happy. No, I do it to make you happier. It’s a whole different context. And I want to you know, you articulated some of the things she does with love to motivate you. I want to give another practical example as well.

John Gray 44:54
Something that I think is helpful to people. What Bonnie did so for years, you know One of my flaws is that I tend to be a little messier than her, which makes it hard for her because she keeps cleaning up after me. And I never know there’s a mess. I never learned how to clean up after messes. You know, since she’s passed, I’ve had to learn how to clean up my messes. So that was like, I never saw how messy I was and tell she’s cleaning up for it. But she would resent it at times. And so she figured out how to get a change. Now the change she got was one of the things was, our house is really long, and I would go down the hallway, go through the living room, go through the dining room, go through the kitchen to get to the TV room. So I’m going from my bedroom to the TV room.

So I’m turning off light switches all the way. And usually, I would just walk through and turn on switches and forget to turn them off on the other end of the room. So she’d say, john, you always forget to turn out the living room light. How often do I have to do this? How many times I have to tell you and this is several years, which becomes more and more frustrating for her. Now, what doesn’t make sense to a man on one level is what wasn’t upsetting the first time.

So why is it upsetting? thing, it’s not a big deal. turning out the light is not a big deal. And we had a conversation, she’s but the electric bill is so high. And I said honey, I make plenty of money. So it doesn’t make a difference to me. And she says no, we need to be more environmentally safe. So I said, Okay, so then I got solar. So now I got solar. She says, yep, we have to set an example. Anyway, but it was just for us a part of what’s going on inside of her to understand her perspective, is if I have to ask him 50 times to do this. If he when he forgets to do it, it means he doesn’t love me. See, that’s the interpretation she’s having. And to be quite honest, that’s not true.

John Gray 46:39
Of course, I love her. It’s just the way I look at it. It’s not significant to her. It’s those little requests. And when I don’t do it, she feels like oh, then he doesn’t love me. And ironically, for a woman, she thinks, if he doesn’t do little things for me, then what’s it going to do? If it’s big? Okay, from his point of view, it’s a little thing. So no big deal. It’s the big stuff I’ll respond to. But how we look at it, we can look at it very differently. So the little things can be very upsetting to her.

John Gray 47:10
So one day, she figured out how to completely change that array and many other ways. But this is an example. So I was used to her looking in the door with disapproval in her eyes. And she put her hands on her hips and she says, you know, you forgot again? How many times do I have to tell you to turn out the light in the living room like an unhappy mother with a child? And of course, that creates a defensive reaction in me. And then she stares at me till I said I was sorry. And if I did say I’m sorry. She said, Well, you don’t feel it. I said it’s true. I don’t feel

John Gray 47:41
this is the stage of my growth through this. Then she looked at me with those eyes. And she’d say, she looked at me. And instead of I couldn’t say I’m sorry and have it be genuine, but I could say, Thanks for pointing that out. I hear you. Okay, that worked better than helped Sue things. That was a good thing. Thanks for telling me, I hear you. Because that’s really what you want. When you’re saying something you want to be heard. And thanks for telling me. I really couldn’t get to the point where I’d say I’ll try harder. Just like it just doesn’t. It’s not who I am. So it’s not a big deal to me that I’ll try to remember sometimes I’d say, then she changed and the whole problem went away. So what she does, she poked her head and she had a smile on her face. And she said, John, and I’m like, What happened? What did I do? That was good. She said, John, I’ve noticed that you’ve been turning out the light more often. And I really love it. And I like took that in the first time I’d heard that she said, and sometimes you still forget. And I just want to remind you how happy it makes me and she walked out of the room. No response for me just left that space. She did that three times in some version of that.

John Gray 48:49
And from that point on, I turned out that light, and to this day for years after she died, I think of her with love in my heart every time I turn out that light. You see it’s motivating somebody with love by looking at what they do right and loving them. No. And if you do this that makes me happy, you know and leave it it’s information that goes into his computer and always men are motivated to do what makes you happy. Particularly if they don’t feel they’ve been made wrong. Just as women are motivated to find their love again on their own if you don’t make them wrong for the moments where they’re not feeling so much love and they want to express what’s bothering them.

Kevin Anthony 49:25
Absolutely that so that whole department she said Where’s how much it makes her happy? That is like the big truth bomb. Aha moment there. Right? Because, guys, we like to be the superhero. I love being the superhero even for silly little things. I want to show up like I am Superman. Yes, I took the garbage out, right? Yes, I want to do that. So if I know that that’s actually going to make her happy. I’ll do it just to make her happy. But if I know that the only reason I’m doing it is just so that she’s not pissed Off is not the same motivation. It really isn’t.

John Gray 50:04
Yeah, it’s a whole different thing. And you don’t want him thinking, I got to do this because I got a crazy wife who doesn’t appreciate me thinking I got this amazing wife and I can make her happier.

Céline Remy 50:14
Hmm. Well, there have been so many tips throughout this entire conversation, john, so many things to take away. But I think the one biggest thing is that hope is of appreciation, it is dear to my heart. So that’s why I want to bring it up again. But in doing so you will lower your stress level for both the men and for the women and feel happier and better. And I think that practice to that you have in some of your books, where you have the woman talk for a certain period of time, while the man just listens where she can feel heard. Creating that space of loving those practices where you don’t fix her, you listen to her, there’s a timing, and then you both can go on your separate way. This is really big too.

Céline Remy 51:00
Do you have any other maybe last practice or words or things to share with our listeners to help them if they like, okay, we are stuck, we are taking the complaining, we are stuck not being happy. At the end of the day, I feel stressed, what is maybe their first step right now they can take

John Gray 51:18
Okay for a woman take 60 days to change a habit that often they say that some people say 100 days, try thinking 60 days, I’m not going to utter a complaint out loud. And I’m going to write in my journal, whatever complaints I have, and never show him. So you’re going to hear that complaint. But you’re not you see, you don’t want to suppress. You don’t want to use negativity to create a change. So the change I’m creating is within myself just greater awareness of the ways I focus on negativity, rather than counting my blessings and seeing what’s possible. If you literally don’t verbalize this, don’t say it out loud. And don’t say with your eyes, you know, don’t make eye contact when your brain is looping on disappointment. It’s okay to feel it but go inside.

John Gray 52:05
Now that’s something women can start with and men can do as well, because men loop on that as well. When you go, she does something to bother you or upset you or you feel like ah, and you go to your cave to ignore her. That’s okay, you’ve got to do that to rebuild your testosterone. So you’re not hooked into that negativity, then reflect this is for men to then reflect on what she did wrong. Never tell her. Don’t tell her. But reflect on what she did wrong. She did this. She did this. She said that. And then what did she not say? The men are problem solvers. So if she was critical of me, what did she not do? She didn’t tell me what a good job I’ve done. And she didn’t appreciate this. And she didn’t appreciate that. And that’s now you’re looking, you’re dissecting it, you’re using analysis, you analyze, it’s so easy to look at them. When you’re upset with them, take some time for yourself, feel better-doing something to feel good, then analyze what happened. First, give your monkey brain permission to blame and your mind, you’re not going to tell her you’re going to analyze what she didn’t do what she could have done, what could have worked better for you that immediately produces testosterone, then turn it around. And now this is the power turned around again.

John Gray 53:20
Now how did I contribute to the problem? And what could I have done better? What did I say? What did I not do that would have worked better and what could have worked better. So now I problem solve within myself to make a change within myself. So I made a commitment, the first seven years of my marriage, which is why I could write this book, one of the reasons men are from Mars. I never uttered a complaint to my wife about anything. I just did that process. Right away. The first thing is to blame out that’s our reactive self, but not out loud and not trying to change her go into your private space. Look at what your thoughts are to blame. analyze that. See how much better she could have been. And she was, then look at yourself. Usually, after you blame out you can look at yourself at that point. And then don’t let her know don’t complain. Because you don’t have to change the outer world for the outer world to change. You’ll have to change yourself.

John Gray 53:20
That’s the key and it doesn’t show it shows up so powerfully in intimate relationships and the outer world a little harder to have everything change around you. You know, for me, I’ve created a life I have a bubble around me where everybody loves me likes me, I have a bunch. It’s I can only go so far out with my bubble. I can’t change those people on the streets who are so unhappy, but I’m doing my best from my side, you know, so we can control our lives by controlling what’s inside of us. And relationships that show up so good and also your own tendencies to not be changed within yourself. Show up your partner will push your buttons.

John Gray 54:52
It’s such a great college to be an education to be in that have your heart open to somebody because then you can see how you react negatively to things You can hold back from letting using that negativity to get what you want. And instead, for women processing those feelings, maybe talking to a coach sharing those feelings with a coach, or you talked about something which takes longer to explain the Venus talk, where you learn how to share feelings, without having to make the man without giving the message that he’s wrong. Okay? Because, you know, you could be thinking he’s not wrong, but you could give the message that he’ll hear that he is wrong, and he won’t be able to hear. So it’s a training, training her how to share training him how to listen, chaining us all, how when we’re feeling stressed how we can let go of the stress reaction on our own, and then help our partners do the same.

Kevin Anthony 55:43
Yeah, that I am challenging the listeners right now, to try not to complain about anything, that is a fantastic practice, I’m not sure a lot of people can really do it. I mean, that’s gonna be a hard behavioral shift for a lot of people, they really get stuck in that. So I think that’s a fantastic first step to really focus on because you, one, you’re not, you’re not voicing it, so you’re not triggering the other person. But the other thing is, you’re really bringing awareness to how many times you do with that you don’t even realize you’re doing it.

John Gray 56:14
Yeah, yeah. And what helps along the way, just to point out is, you recognize what you’re doing, that doesn’t work, then you have to do something that does work for your hormones, okay, because just not saying your complaint doesn’t necessarily work for your hormones, it just keeps you from doing the wrong thing over and over. So women have to understand those things that will increase their estrogen, which is finding people you could share it with journaling. But when you journal, when you talk to somebody about what’s bothering you, that’s the surface, then you have to talk about what you feel underneath it, which is I don’t feel loved, I don’t feel supported, I feel powerless, I feel confused. then underneath that feeling is an emotion. emotion is where you release the tendency. And that’s where the negativity goes away.

John Gray 57:01
Because when you are able to connect with your emotions, when you’re not trying to change someone, human amounts of estrogen come forth. That’s the power for women, to come back to their positivity is to come back to the emotion. And you know, often in relationships, it’s once you can learn to do that, then now you’re fusing positive emotion because if you don’t look at your negative emotions, then your positive emotions over time become less and less and less. So we have to be emotional beings. It’s part of who we are. And if a woman can share her positive emotions ka bang a man will feel his positive emotions. If a man feels his positive emotions, that’s nice but doesn’t necessarily make her feel that great.

John Gray 57:45
I just one more fun story. You know, I love my work. I get to be with celebrities. I’m famous. I stay in the best hotels. So I’d go away while my wife’s at home with the kids for three or four days, I fly to New York. In my own jet, even, you know, I just lifestyle. And I come home. And she said How was your trip? Oh, fantastic. I met so and so I did this, I did this. Now if she was already in a good mood, she was happy for me. But if she had bad stuff happened while I was away, I could just see a dark cloud. Yes, you have all the fun. Do you know what I had to go through? There was a leak in the ceiling. I did call so and so you forgot to get this, you know, suddenly all the complaints go out.

John Gray 58:28
And so I learned I always check the weather report before I tell her how happy the reason that’s so funny as people relate to that, but turn it around if I’m having a bad day and she says oh, I’m so lucky to be in this house. This family this life I have I’m so grateful a guy immediately will feel better. See her happiness makes him feel successful and as successful raises testosterone. But when she feels he’s so happy and she’s not happy. His happiness isn’t going to do much because for women is not about I’m successful. It’s about he’s successful and giving me what I need. And at that time, she needs a need that she wants. But the need that her physiology requires is something that generates estrogen and Sharon can do it if it’s done properly.

Céline Remy 59:17
Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much, John, there’s so much wisdom and you have so much more we know that you have a free course on how to get everything you want in relationships. So if you’ve enjoyed John’s want to dive deeper or he’s got so many books we’ve got a lot of them in our bookshelves they all awesome. Mars Venus calm is your website. Is there anywhere else you want to send people to or where they can connect with you or have that to where you want them to go to

John Gray 59:45
Free course at marsvenus.com and then you can check out my daughter’s online courses because we get even bigger reviews with that. She’s amazing, but I’m still good.

Céline Remy 59:58
Yeah, amazing. You’ve done a great job, you’ve helped so many people. And then you’re passing on the baton and she’s keeping up with the greatness. Yeah. Thank you so much for this wonderful conversation. It was amazing. I can’t wait to listen to it all over again, so many great gems. I want to take a few notes. And we really appreciate your time and your wisdom. Thank you again.

Kevin Anthony 1:00:20
All right, everybody. That’s all the time we have for this episode. And we will see you next week. We hope you like this episode of the love lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 1:00:38
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault. That’s kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault.

Kevin Anthony 1:00:52
Thanks for listening.

Céline Remy 1:00:54
And remember, you’re amazing