How To Awaken Your Erotic Self With Deborah Kagan

Kevin Anthony 0:05
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, a safe and fun place to get real and learn about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony, and I am here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom, and your relationships.

All right, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 290. And it is titled How to awaken your erotic self with Deborah Kagan now. What does that really mean to awaken your erotic self, we are, of course going to explore what that means throughout this episode. But in general, what we’re really talking about here is a sexual awakening. And this is a topic that I love to talk about. Because, you know, having been through one myself, but also having watched so many people and helped facilitate so many people have, quote, unquote, sexual awakenings. It’s something that is sort of near and dear to my heart, most of us grow up, and we’re either given some sort of religion or some sort of, you know, cultural system to follow, and most of them are extremely repressed when it comes to sexuality. Many times our parents don’t want to talk about it at all, they don’t even really want to answer our questions other than to just sort of brush them off.

So we don’t really learn any of this stuff, which means it’s up to us as we get older and mature to go on our own journey towards learning what our sexuality is about how to use it. You know, what, what can we do with it? How powerful is it, all that kind of stuff? And I will say that the overwhelming majority of people that I know, that have had sexual awakenings stumbled into it absolutely by accident. I would love to see more people consciously embark on this journey because there’s a lot of healing to be had. And so my guest today is going to help us unpack this she’s going to talk about her own personal story of how she woke in her erotic self. And I think it’s going to be a great conversation.

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Okay. My guest today is Deborah Kagan. She is an author and mentor. With years of practice being a turned-on woman I can’t wait to hear what that means for her. She supports entrepreneurs, small business owners, consultants, creatives, and the career-oriented to tap into their innate power and connect with their mojo, a source of true self-esteem. Her methods combined over 25 years of experience in personal development, metaphysical studies, and embodiment practices. She has a book that was released at the end of last year called Undressed an invitation to claim your erotic nature. Right. So we’re going to definitely be asking about that today. And in that, she features real-life candidate stories from her past personal sexual and relationship experiences. So that’s definitely what we want to talk about today. So welcome to the show, Deborah.

Deborah Kagan 4:15
Thank you. I’m so glad to be here with you. Sometimes listening to the bio was like, Oh, who is that person? Do I know her today?

Kevin Anthony 4:25
Right. I know. It’s kind of weird. I go on other people’s shows too. And I have to listen to them read my bio, and I’ll always Yeah, that’s me. I think I know that guy. Yeah, exactly. All right. So we’re really talking today about sort of the journey that what we often call a sexual awakening. Now, I don’t want to spend too much time focusing on that term. But I did want to just maybe start with what it really means to awaken your erotic self What does it mean to have a sexual awakening because I know that it’s kind of like a generic term a perfect example of this is I was at a party a couple of years ago with some friends, and I’m overhearing a friend of mine talk about her sexual awakening. And she said that phrase like three times she’s like, and when I had my sexual awakening, and then the more that you know, my sexual like an absent going, I know you and your husband quite well. You haven’t really had a sexual, like, there’s still a lot of sexual repression going on here and this relationship, but in her mind, she had had a sexual awakening. So I’m curious from your point of view, like what does it really mean to awaken your erotic self? What does it mean to have a sexual awakening?

Deborah Kagan 5:42
It’s interesting, I love the way that you shared that story there because I think we can have sexual awakenings throughout our entire life. Do we ever fully entirely like get to the mega sexual awakening of all motherlode sexual awakenings? Maybe that’s possible. I believe that, you know, that’s possible, I think it’s more interesting to allow yourself to have what I would call your initial sexual awakening. Because as I think you said in the intro, you know, most of us, I haven’t yet met someone who grew up with zero shame around their sexuality. So let’s just say the majority of humans have shame around their sexuality.

And so therefore, there is something to let go of there is a veil of conditioning beliefs to move through so you can have an awakening where you are more connected to your sexuality, what is your sexuality, what pleases you what what turns you on what feels good that that availability to be in exploration in your own sexual nature, right. And I think once we have that, let’s say, an initial one, where it’s like, your this friend of yours was talking, she was like, I’ve had the sexual awakening, or having sexual awakening something in her freed up more than it ever has. That’s what I’m hearing from the story. And that is delicious. You know, because any time we can get more free, and let ourselves go from whatever shackle is holding us back, that in itself is an awakening, in my opinion.

And I believe that we can have them ongoingly because a lot of the stuff that holds us back is very hidden. You know, it’s what money depth and you know, and sex, right are like the things that people are really freaked out about having conversations around. And so the stuff that actually holds you back is deep, deep, and usually, well, well, well hidden. Right? And so the more that you free up, the more you uncover, then the more you can explore, and then you hit a new space, like, oh, my gosh, I didn’t know that was possible. Wow. Like, here’s this other awakening. That’s, that’s my long answer for you. Well,

Kevin Anthony 8:18
I actually really liked that answer, I like how you have shown that there are levels of awakening, that you may have a certain level of, you know, sexual awakening, but that doesn’t mean that there aren’t other levels to go. And that is for sure. That was absolutely in her case, I don’t deny that she did have something that shifted in her, but there was still a long way to go. You know, I often have conversations with people around just levels of sort of consciousness in general, right? So people will say to me, like, this person knows so much about health and healthy food and all this, how could they not know about this other thing over here? How could they be completely clueless, you know, in this other area, when they’re so tapped in and so intelligent in this other area?

One of the things that I always say when that topic comes up is, you know, awakening isn’t just like all of a sudden the light bulb pops on, and you know, everything, we wake up in little areas, we there’s a piece over here that we get and then later on, there’s a piece over here that we get right? And what eventually when enough of those pieces wake up, it seems like, you know, they just suddenly had an awakening and now look at how wise they are. And it’s like, now we get it piece by piece. And I think the same is also true when it comes to our sexuality. We wake up sort of a piece at a time and so we can have these multiple levels of awakening when it comes to our sexuality. Absolutely.

All right, so now that we kind of understand that a lot of what I want to talk about today really has to do with your story because I think personal stories They’re interesting, and I think they do a great job of illustrating what it is that we’re talking about. So I’m wondering if you could tell us about your story. And, you know, for people to really understand that means, like, Where were you before you had your first awakening? What was your sex life, like, you know, how to you operate in a relationship when it comes to sexuality, you know, what triggered, potentially, you know, this awakening, and, you know, how did it go? What, you know, just all of that, and, you know, I might pop in here and there to ask more questions, but I really want to talk about your process and how that worked for you.

Deborah Kagan 10:40
Yeah, you know, it was a very bumpy, Rocky, interesting roller coaster of arrival. And I do believe like, all of us, I came back very free, very interested in my body, very interested in other other bodies. And you mentioned my new book Undressed, I write about in the introduction, how when I was, I don’t know, I think around five, I was playing doctor with the boy who lived across the street. And you again, like, like, like, when we come back as Little People were just like, well, what is this rental vehicle that I’ve dropped into, you know, this thing called a human body? You know, what does this do? And what does that do? And, oh, that’s a vagina. And oh, that’s a penis, right? We don’t know these words, necessarily, when we first come back. But there’s all this stuff to discover. And I felt like a very curious very healthfully curious little person. And then somebody found us, I don’t even remember who it was right? And we got yelled at, and total shame just set in. And that was like, the first moment of this layer of shame that like, my body’s wrong, you should not be talking about or touching it, or certainly not exploring it with any other people around.

Kevin Anthony 11:53
Alright, I gotta pause you just for one second. Because I actually have a very, very similar story with the girl that lives next door, just, you know, pulling our pants down and like, hey, what’s what’s going on here? What’s yours? I will say, though, that fortunately for me, my response to that wasn’t, Oh, my God, this is horrible. I should never do it again. My response was, oh, shit, I gotta be more careful and not get caught again.

Deborah Kagan 12:18
So you did get caught?

Kevin Anthony 12:21
When you’re that age, how can you not get caught? You’re quiet for five. You’re quiet for two minutes. And your parents like what’s going on? They’re quiet.

Deborah Kagan 12:29
Exactly. Well, it’s interesting, though. But that’s also just just note of gender. You know, hear? It’s interesting, the way that you took it, and the way that I took it. Yeah, right. It’s interesting. And I think that that is fairly common. fairly common. Well, I’ll leave that there. But in any case, so that was that, and my first actual experience of intercourse was not a lovely experience. It was rape. It was somebody that I knew I was dealing with coming out of a functionally dysfunctional household, and I was not living at home anymore. And so this person broke in. And that happened, obviously, not the way I wanted it to happen. I was wanting to have sex, I really was, because I felt ready, and I was interested. And I was starting again, to explore my body.

I’m an early teen at this point and felt really good about most of it, let’s say, and then that happened. And so that put a whole different spin on everything for quite a while. And all I wanted to do was numb out. And then it was like, Okay, well, if my body is only here to be, the experience was my body was just here to be, let’s say used and misused, right by others. That, that I started to seek out other experiences and having sex with people that, you know, maybe weren’t the best for me at the time. And that was all that I knew, right? That was just the messaging and I want to soothe myself. And I also thought, well, if I do it enough, or if I, you know, maybe I’ll find the right person, and then I’ll get love, right instead of this other thing that’s been happening. So it’s very deeply confusing.

And ultimately, it was in college that I had what I would call really an awakening of consciousness as well as a sexual and spiritual awakening that happened all the same time. And I was with my boyfriend, and he had started to turn me on to some spiritual books, and he was the one who got me into gemstone healing and you know, this is like, 1990 like in New York City. Nobody was into this stuff. You know? We were we were all kind of freaks. And so we didn’t talk about it a lot. And I was fascinated because it was landing in my mind and it was landing in my body in such a way that I, I knew that there was other levels. And to not only that your experience here in life was certainly to our experience in lovemaking. And one night, we were making love. And it was as if, you know, the heavens parted and I had basically, what I now know, is a type of a kundalini awakening. Okay, so I didn’t know what the hell was happening at the time, but all of that energy and all of that sacred energy in my body started to wake up.

And he knew about it, he didn’t necessarily tell me about it in those words, but it was such a beautiful experience, because he, he knew what was happening. And he was able to stay with me and hold the space for us. And it was just, it was beautiful. And I got to cry and cry and cry, you know, and that was the moment that I thought sex would never be the same, right? Like something is different. Cut too many years later, you know, I’ve now moved to Los Angeles from New York City. And of course, hey, LA, baby, you know, the city of Whoo. And lots of spiritual awakening. And then, you know, I got a, I got exposed to a lot of different Metaphysical Healing. And this is really where I got to come out of the metaphysical closet, just as a human. I’ve really dedicated my life towards that.

And so that was, that was a beautiful thing. And I started to explore what we do different types of practices, and so on and so forth. But then I got married, and I married a lovely man. And we were great friends. But all of my old trauma started to kick up, which was really interesting, because even though our friendship was beautiful, it was just in the sexual arena, that all of the old trauma kicked up. And it wasn’t anything that you know, he was doing consciously couldn’t have been a more loving, kind, just beautiful human, something about whatever the chemistry was kicked up all of that trauma, and neither one of us really knew how to deal with it, because we were both in our 20s. Right, it was when we were young. So that, that marriage did end, and we both decided, okay, this is this is not serving either one of us. And it was at the end of that marriage, that I said to myself, Okay, what is going on with you, Deborah, something is clearly happening here. That is, is not good for you. It’s not good for relationships.

So take the time, and dedicate yourself to whatever it is that you need to understand who you are as a woman, and who you are as a sexual and sensual, and maliciously a lot of women discover that. And like, just go there, like dedicate yourself to that. And that’s what I did. And I went, Yeah, so I went down.

Kevin Anthony 18:09
This is great. I just want to pause for a moment. Talk a little bit about what you just said, before we go on to the next part. Yeah. The next part of it. I’m curious. So you, you said that what you experienced was what you now call a kundalini awakening. And we don’t really need to go into what a kundalini awakening is here for the audience. Half of them probably are gonna be like, Wow, that’s a bunch of weird stuff anyway. But the point is, I’m curious. Like, was there something specific that happened?

Because, okay, a kundalini awakening is kind of a big event. And for some people, it can actually even just blow out their nervous system to the point where they’re just like, Ah, right, like, and then they spend a lot of time trying to figure out what just happened to them. And that freaks them out. I’m curious, like, was there something specific that happened? Or that you were doing? And then And then what did like how did you experience it in your body? What did it feel like in your body when you had this moment?

Deborah Kagan 19:08
Well, what it felt like was, so at first, we’re making love, right? So it’s just, hey, we’re making love, it’s beautiful. There’s an intimacy happening, there’s a depth that we hadn’t reached before. So it felt like yummy but on the edge of something that is potentially really scary. And so I was, there was a little bit of fear. There was my body was nervous, there was some anxious, you know, kind of butterflies happening. And then my breathing pattern started to change. And he kept just making love to me and making little desserts like slow and steady. It was just slow and steady, what was going on in that realm. And what happened was my breath started to change, and it was getting faster. And it was And then it was becoming very like a, like a, like a, like a pump, you know? Like that was starting to happen. And then it was as if I couldn’t breathe like my breath was getting stuck close to my throat like it was.

So it was very much in my chest and my belly, all this breath, and all this sensation, and then my breath got stuck towards the throat and an eye, my eyes got really big. And I remember that’s when I started to cry. And I tried to I tried to speak, I was like, I can’t, I can’t, like I was trying to say I can’t breathe. And he was talking to me. Just with a few words through it and continued to make love to me. And so I was like feeling all of this sort of pleasure and the sexual feelings. While this stuckness then started to like it’s a really bad analogy, but it’s like when a pipe gets clogged, okay. And all of a sudden, the roto Rooter, you know, gets in, and then it’s like, and the pipe and the, you know, the water just flows, right. So that’s what it felt like, because all of a sudden, it was like this dam kind of burst through my throat of breath. And I remember going, Oh, I took his giant, giant breath. And then I just started sobbing.

So that’s, you know, that was the physical experience. And he kept making love to me the entire time. There was no, he didn’t stop. And I have I mean, I’ve had some similar experiences, you know, along the road after that, that was a long time ago now. But I really want to punctuate, you know, for the, I’d say the, you know, the alpha of the lovers, whoever your partner, whoever is taking that alpha sort of more masculine role in that there was not one moment of wavering on his part in terms of holding me being with me continuing to make love to me through that whole process. And that allowed that breakthrough to happen.

Kevin Anthony 22:04
So a couple of things I want to say about that. The first is you were pretty young, right? You’re in your 20s?

Deborah Kagan 22:10
I think I was 21 at that time.

Kevin Anthony 22:12
So the fact that and I don’t know, you know, making an assumption that this man happened to be roughly around your age. That is actually truly amazing to find some buddy who could hold that kind of space in that moment. And because what most men will do is Oh, my God, there’s something wrong, what’s going on with me? What can I do to fix it, right? And then you see, you go right into that, which, of course, is going to shut the whole experience down collapse the whole thing. So the fact that you were able to experience that, and that he could hold that space and just keep, you know, going and being you know, caring, and that that is truly amazing. You’re very fortunate at that age, most people most women cannot find a man like that until they’re in their 40s.

Deborah Kagan 22:57
Yeah, yeah, no, he’s a very special human.

Kevin Anthony 23:01
So there’s that. And then the other thing is, I’m really glad that you sort of gave a description of what it was like, because I have had conversations with women who have experienced Kundalini awakenings, and it’s scared the crap out of them. Right. And so it’s really good for people who are listening to hear what that is like, because, you know, most people, you know, unless you were into some of the more esoteric things, maybe you’ve studied Tantra, maybe you’ve studied Kundalini yoga or anything sort of in the energetic realm. Okay, you’re familiar with it, when it happens, you might be a little weirded out, but you’re like, I think I know what just happened. But most people don’t study that stuff. Most people don’t know about it. And then this happens to them. And then they freak out. What just happened to me?

Deborah Kagan 23:46
So that’s why we have to talk about this.

Kevin Anthony 23:48
That’s exactly why we have to talk about it. And that’s why I wanted to ask you that question about what did it feel like in your body? And what was your actual experience? Because I wanted people to hear what that’s actually like. A friend of mine is a woman who she wrote a couple of books, one of which I think is, I think it’s simply called What is Tantra? It’s a fantastic book. She also wrote one called My Life with Kundalini, where she describes a very similar experience to that. And how it really freaked her out and like, messed her up for a while because she didn’t know what was going on with her body. So the more that we can shed light on that, the more we can avoid people having to go through this like, I don’t know what there’s something wrong with me. I don’t ever want to do that, again, because some people there the reaction is to actually shut down as a result of that rather than allowing it to be the opening that it was meant to be. Absolutely.

Deborah Kagan 24:43
Well, look at it. It can be as you’re saying incredibly scary because it is such a rush of lifeforce. That’s what it is. It is a rush of our lifeforce, moving through our bodies, and particularly, I mean, I can’t even imagine frankly If I was having that awakening now in our 21st century, in, you know, being on a phone and computers and everything that we have now, that is numbing us from our lifeforce, you know because this happened to me 30 years ago was a different it was a different world. And yes, of course, there were distractions, but not like we have today in terms of like literally taking us away from ourselves. And so and that’s one of the reasons I mean, I’m just going to mention this now, but we can talk more about it whenever.

That’s one of the reasons I wrote the book Undressed is because it actually is in seven sections based on the seven power centers of the body. And so when we’re talking about this Kundalini awakening, and really having your lifeforce surge and your body open up so that you can let that amount of lifeforce and pleasure and joy and enthusiasm and health and vibrancy run through your body. It does that through your seven power centers. And that’s why if you’ve never done any sort of energetic work, or you’ve not done, you know, yoga practices or these types of things, or worked with your power centers, it can feel so intense because it literally like it can it’s like shorts on the short circuit your system if you’re unaware of what’s going on. And certainly, if you’re not open to what’s going on.

Kevin Anthony 26:35
Okay, you’ve gone and done it. Now. You’ve gotten into the realm of chakras and the esoteric. So let’s just talk a little bit about that to the audience. So they understand what we’re talking about here. So there are seven chakras, which correspond to what science has now discovered, and are areas with a higher nerve concentration. So they’re bundles of nerves. And so, you know, I have a background in Tantra. So aside from being a sexologist, and also a certified tantric counselor, we work a lot in these realms with these types of things. And so from that perspective, what they would say is that you know, for various potential reasons, whether it’s sickness or trauma, or whatever, those areas can get shut down.

And so if you think about, you know, an area of your body goes numb, right? Well, that’s the nerves just deciding that they, for whatever reason, whether it’s trauma, whatever, they’re not going to feel anything in this moment. Well, that can literally happen in these areas of, you know, dense nerve endings, and you can literally not feel stuff. And so what happens in a particular situation like a kundalini awakening, is all of a sudden, they all just open up, and that energy just flows through them all. And you’re feeling stuff that you probably haven’t felt before, or maybe not to that extent. So this is kind of like a super brief overview of what are we talking about when we’re talking about chakras and energy centers, we could do many, many shows on just that alone. But I will say this for anybody listening who is like, you know, this is a bunch of sort of woo-woo, you know, bullshit. Having worked with people for a long time. And having had this, you know, training and awareness and understanding, I have seen when you can remove a block and a specific chakra, somebody’s life, absolutely transforms.

Deborah Kagan 28:41
100%,

Kevin Anthony 28:42
I had a conversation many, many years ago, with a friend because he knew the work that I did talk to me about just, you know, learning to control his ejaculation and how, you know, he just would have like, basically no control, he would get too excited. And then boom. And you know, there’s more to it than that. I don’t remember all the details. But back at that time, I said, Well, it sounds to me probably like your second or third chakra is completely shut down, and you’re not able to move all that energy that’s building up through the rest of your body. So it has to explode out somewhere. It was, it was an approach to solving that from the perspective that you know, tantra or chakras would see it.

Simply by getting him to learn how to move energy through his body and work through the different blocks that he had, he actually was able to shift the physical performance of his body. So this stuff really works. I’m not saying that’s the cure for everybody. But these things are real and they do potentially work. All right. Well, I can’t even believe we are halfway through the show already. And there’s so much more to get to. Let me just take a quick pause because I have a lot more questions for you about this.

All right. Are you a couple are your relationship and sex life where you want them to be? Are there challenges you would like to make but just don’t know how maybe you think there’s nothing that can be done. If you’re not 100% happy with where your relationship or sex life is, then get help today and change your life. Go to KevinandCéline.com/sex-coaching-couples/. I know it’s a long link, but don’t worry, it’s in the description. Schedule a strategy call with me today. So we can map out a strategy to get you where you want to be so that you can have it all your way and have the relationship of your dreams and the best sex of your life. That is KevinandCéline.com/sex-coaching-couples/. The link is in the description below.

All right. So I paused you because I really wanted to go back and talk about, you know what it feels like, you know, to have a kundalini awakening, then we kind of went down the chakra rabbit hole a little bit, but I know there’s more to your story. So I want you to pick up from where we left off if you know where that is.

Deborah Kagan 31:06
Yeah, so uh, you know, really, when I went on this journey, after my marriage to discover what is what do I need? What is it going to mean to be a fully embodied woman? What is it going to mean to like, own my sexuality and my sensuality in such a way that it is? First, mine that I know what pleases me. So then I can really join with a partner to, you know, not have them fill something, but to truly have just a beautiful co-created experience. And so I went on this journey, and the stories in undressed people were like, Why did you write about your sex life, Deborah, and I said, it’s and smiling, because I need you to know about my sex life. Number one, because we do need to hear through more real-life stories of people’s sexual experiences. And to have that become more normalized. It’s still who you know, at dinner parties or you know, if you dare talk about sex at a dinner party, right? But it’s still like these hush-hush or just when the girls are around her, I don’t know what guys do. I know they talk but like, you know, not the way that we ladies talk. And it’s got to become more normalized so that we can all really let go of this extraordinary shame that still exists around sex.

Kevin Anthony 32:22
Every dinner party my wife and I ever went to, we would end up talking about sex openly in front of everybody. That’s why we started this show, by the way, was to have these types of conversations because they need to be talked about. And one of the, one of the best pieces of feedback that we’ve gotten many times over the years is, it’s amazing how you guys can talk so openly about this, like you actually give us permission to do so yes.

Deborah Kagan 32:48
And that’s exactly the same feedback that I’ve had all these years. And that’s you just got to keep doing it. Because there are many more of us who need to keep doing it so that they can become so normalized. So the experiences that I wrote about these memoir pieces in the book are about these wonderful lovers that I experienced along this road of awakening that I realized when I looked back, oh, each of those experiences actually helped to sort of light up one of these power centers, right, we were talking about how they have certain qualities and connect certain parts of our lives. And each of these moments, there are six lovers that I write about. And then the seventh experience was with me, so it was a self-pleasuring moment. That totally woke me up to the fullness of my everything, my humaneness, my sexuality, my sensuality, and being able to understand it and claim it.

Kevin Anthony 33:53
Okay, so now you have opened the box.

Deborah Kagan 33:57
Yes, I like to do that.

Kevin Anthony 33:59
So, would you be willing to share one of those moments, one of those stories? Obviously, I you know, I don’t expect the entire, you know, in-depth explanation that I’m sure is in the book. But yet Could you share one that was, you know, pivotal for you?

Deborah Kagan 34:15
Yeah, it’s hard, because they’re all so pivotal. And I will share. So, there was, there was an experience I had with this lovely. I mean, you know, they were all quite lovely, lovely humans and lovely men. And this was one that happened within the year after I’d left the marriage. And I thought, Oh, I was I was visiting my sister and I thought, oh, you know, it was it was she was at a we were at a party. And I met someone and we had a lovely connection. And we just thought, Oh, this is going to be a fun weekend. Right? We’re just going to have some fun together. And it ended up turning into this beautiful love affair.

And what ended up happening was the way that he was with me just in life. And then of course, the way that he shared himself with me in bed, cracked my heart open, and I did not know how hard my heart had become, in protecting itself once I did leave the marriage, right, so my heart was in such a state of well, you know, protection, discomfort, part of it, you know, a brokenness in a way. And so there was like, plenty of walls that were standing there. And through my experience with this lover, and we were together really five times in five months, it was a, I don’t know, kind of a brief but very potent love affair. It absolutely cracked open the walls of my heart.

And like he knew, in some way, I don’t know if it was conscious or not, but he certainly knew in some way how to dismantle those walls, though, you know, through the way that he physically loved me and the way that he physically pleasured me, right, there was such a sense of admiration for the female form for this is going to sound you know, because I do live half on the west side of the street and half on, you know, the reality in New York City side of the street, that it was very much of like cherishing, and a worshipping of the Goddess within, you know, the worshipping of that Queen within the woman. And I had not experienced that, to that extent, at that point in my life. And what I realized was, oh, my, like, my heart just blasted open. And while it was sad, that we didn’t go further, because I thought maybe we would, it completely made sense of why the two of us, you know, sort of Tangoed and and what we brought to each other’s lives.

Kevin Anthony 37:08
Yeah, that’s beautiful. And I’m glad you went into it. Because, of course, the next question on my mind was like, What specifically did he do, and you did cover that it’s the, it’s the, you said, sort of worship and admiration for the feminine. And I’m so glad that you brought that up, because this is a piece that a lot of men just really don’t understand. And it’s actually a subject that’s really been up for me lately, as far as how I can teach this better. It’s something that I do very naturally than I’ve always done, because I’ve always seen the beauty and the power, and just the amazingness of the feminine.

But what I see when I work with people is too many men in this sort of adversarial role, you know, looking at the feminine as you know, an adversary, one that they don’t understand one that’s like an enigma. And like, you know, it’s like, how do I get what I need out of this without incurring too much, you know, conflict? And so yeah, it’s something that I’ve really been thinking about a lot lately is how can I teach people to see it from the point of view that I see it from? Because you’re absolutely right. When you show up for a woman like that, and you hold great space, and you cherish her, and you show her you reflect back to her, the divine nature that she is that she probably hasn’t seen because nobody else is reflected that back to her. It absolutely shifts, everything shifts everything. Yeah. open her up.

Deborah Kagan 38:49
Yeah, I mean, then the woman wants to, you know, the amount of pleasure and what is possible at that point is endless. Because when space is held for the feminine, and when, when that blossoming occurs, you can have anything, truly, I mean, you know, and I’ve, I know this from my own experience, I know this from the women that I work with and their experiences. But you know, here’s the thing that we haven’t talked about yet. And I think this is really important, especially in light of this piece of the conversation. Women first need to get comfortable with their own bodies and be okay in their own skin.

And that is a hugely challenging thing for a woman to open herself up to and be willing to do because there’s also an enormous amount of fear and an enormous amount of concern just about exploring herself. And the other thing that I think you’re talking about when, you know, on a man this side of the street, this is I mean for men and women, but it’s a level of consciousness. And that’s, you know, this is the soapbox that I’ve been standing on for nearly 20 years now which is Is that you know, your sex and your spirit? Your Higher Consciousness what? However, you relate to that, all right? It’s those things are one in the same. And we you know society and culture and religion love to keep that separate

Kevin Anthony 40:17
Oh very, very much on purpose. I’m really glad that you brought this part up it actually is a question on my list. We just hadn’t quite gotten there. But now is the perfect time.

Deborah Kagan 40:27
Okay, so yeah, we can, you know, so and why and, you know, it’s, it’s a good bet, you know, better for society and culture and religion to keep it separate is because then we are more controllable. Right? There’s no, we’re disempowered. Exactly. So it’s about bringing those two together. So when it’s like, okay, men, how do you hold space? How do you know, hold space, and create deliciousness for you know, the divine feminine in your lover? You got to connect with your own consciousness first, right? You need to be in that space of like, hang on a second, this isn’t just about like the position, how do I get her off? You know, what’s the thing that’s going to bring her to the orgasm, you know, what, you know, sexual technique and trig. All those things are cool to know.

But ultimately, it’s about being in that space, like, in the Now moment with this other rental vehicle. I mean, yeah, it’s a, you know, it’s a body, you know, so, but there’s a whole other soul being that is within that skin. And when you join with another like that, that’s when you’re going to have the most delicious sex. And yes, it could even be a one-night stand. It doesn’t have to be necessarily a long-term relationship to have that kind of communion with a lover. And I think that’s really important to know.

Kevin Anthony 41:50
Oh, absolutely. And thank you so much for sharing that. And I love the way you put that kind of communion and that it could even be in a one-night stand. And the reason why I think that’s kind of interesting or important to share is that it’s important for people to know that this is possible, in almost any circumstance, if both people show up, willing and able to do it. And in my opinion, this type of communion is the way it was always meant to be. This is what coming together sexually is supposed to be. It’s just that we’ve been so disempowered, so lied to so led astray, that what we think is normal communion in the realm of sexuality man and woman coming together isn’t actually what it’s supposed to be. It’s that what we aren’t sort of new normal isn’t really the real normal. The real normal is what you’re describing. That’s what it should be when a man and yeah, come together.

Deborah Kagan 42:51
And we get you know, we’ve gotten so sidetracked about, it’s about the orgasm. It’s not about the orgasm, everybody, there’s a fun, those are fun, it can feel really yummy. I’m not mad at orgasms. But it’s not about the orgasm.

Kevin Anthony 43:05
This is another huge one, I spend so much time teaching people that if you can let go of the destination of the orgasm, you will likely have bigger, better ones later on. But you have to let go of the agenda of getting there in order for that to happen.

Deborah Kagan 43:19
Exactly. And we all get caught up on it, right? It’s like all of a sudden, you could feel it coming in the rise and the rise and the rise and it’s like, okay, okay, I want to be on that or, you know, get there, get there get there. And it’s like, just like be you know, be with it.

Kevin Anthony 43:32
You know, because women honestly have been let down so much by the average man’s performance in the sense that we know all the studies man, you know, one study, he only lasts three to five minutes. The other study is five to seven minutes. And in every study, she’s 25 to 30 minutes. And honestly, that’s given them. That’s a short time for some women, it could be you know, 40 minutes, it could be an hour, right, like, so this idea that, you know, when women start to get close to their orgasm, they’re like, I just gotta grab it. I gotta grab it right now. Because if I don’t, it’s gone. And it’s never coming back again, right? Because he’s gonna finish and then we’re done. Right?

So I understand why that is. But that’s where we have to teach both men like, hey, here’s how you last longer. Here’s how you hold space. Here’s how you show up in the way that we were just describing. And then you know, women it’s like, don’t just rush for the quick clitoral orgasm, take your time, slow down, build that energy. You’ll have bigger ones, you’ll hit G Spot orgasms, you’ll end up hopefully, you know with an earth-shattering video cervical orgasm, but that stuff comes later on if you can, if you can get there.

Deborah Kagan 44:42
Yeah, well, and that’s, you know, that’s the stuff that I write about. And my whole the whole work that I’ve developed and you know, certainly just through my own experience, and obviously all the training that I’ve now done, but for over 20 years, it’s been about supporting women in really reclaiming their own Mojo, which is that lifeforce, which is that erotic nature. I mean, I call your arrows your erotic nature. It’s like Mojo, plus your desire, right? So Mojo is lifeforce. You can call it chi Qi prana, sexual energy, or whatever culture you happen to be coming from. It’s all the same thing. It’s the stuff that animates all of life. And even quantum physics, you know, for those of you who are not necessarily woo inclined to quantum physics has proven it at this point. It’s called the Higgs boson. We could go down. That’s a whole other conversation.

But in any case, Mojo your lifeforce is real. And then arrows is that lifeforce plus your desire. So what is it that you actually desire? And when you combine it with that lifeforce, oh my gosh, like, talk about pleasure of the ultimate form. My deep dedication is to support I love men, and you’re doing great work. And so there’s your battle that side of the street, but like, my deep dedication is supporting women in being able to find a space where they can explore themselves in this particular way. So that there can be when you’re ready to have the ultimate experiences and the sexual experiences with your lover with your spouse, you know, with your partner, whenever and wherever. But I really do believe very much so that a woman has to have a knowing of herself in depth that then to have a relationship in that way with herself before she can truly truly have these epic things that we’re talking about with a partner.

Sometimes you can, of course, explore it with a partner, I write about that in the book, obviously, the experiences I had. So it’s not like you have to, you know, go and hide out in a cave, and, you know, figure it all out by yourself, ladies. But there’s something to be said. And it’s, it’s an experiential thing. And so to put words and language to it is very difficult. But there’s something to be said for when you know, your own pleasure and you know, your body and you know, your parts, you know, what your cervix feels like, at what time of the month because your cervix is moving and shifting throughout the month. Right. So having those kinds of knowing about yourself. What does your clitoris feel like? You know, Can you feel your clitoral bulbs you know, which are along your labia underneath your labia? Right? How does it feel when you pinch your own nipples or when you lightly brush them?

I mean, there are all sorts of different ways to explore the pleasure within you by yourself. So when you finally do understand that, and now you are sitting with or lying with a partner, there’s more freedom in your skin, instead of concern and nervousness, and what do I look like? And is that cellulite or that stretch mark showing? Or I don’t know, is this gonna feel good? Or I don’t know how to express myself like, can I tell him that it ended up right? All of that can be much, much quieter once you’ve had the experience with yourself, for yourself, and by yourself.

Kevin Anthony 48:18
Yeah, and I love that part about really starting with yourself, which kind of, we’re like, really close to the end of the show. And I have a lot of love more questions, which we’re not going to be able to get to them all. But one of them was, you know, how can somebody go about starting on this journey? And I think the first part of the answer is to start with yourself, right?

Deborah Kagan 48:41
For sure. It’s absolutely starting with yourself. You know, most women that I that come to work with me, I’ve been talking over 20 years now and of all ages, right from 20s to 70s. Although you know, in all the decades in between, most of them have not looked at their vulvas ever, and the rest of them have looked at it but it was a long time ago. Okay, you have to look I mean, not know to have all these are the same, which is so delicious and beautiful and wonderful. And I mean, just sit want to get a glass of wine or whatever it is that you like, just take a look. You’re gorgeous, right? So really start to look at yourself. Because if you can’t look at yourself, it’s going to be very difficult to have deep pleasure. Because if you’re not having a relationship where you can look that right there is a deep level of shame.

Kevin Anthony 49:38
Yeah, you know, this is this is a lot of the work that my wife used to do with women, all of this stuff that you are also doing so I’m so glad that there’s still people out there doing this work because it’s very much needed. And I always used to say for years I would say I’m amazed at how many women don’t even know what their own job genitals look like. Because from my perspective, as a man, I’m like, we know it forwards, backward Inside Out upside down every birthmark that we have thoroughly explored it. And I had another guest on the show a while back sometime within the last year where I had said that same thing. And she actually gave a really great explanation as to why that is with, you know, societal programming and the shaming and all these other things. Exactly. And, you know, so I understand why, and yet at the same time, it’s like, wow!

Deborah Kagan 50:36
Yeah, well, and that’s the thing. And that’s what I, you know, the whole book Undressed is like, if you want to know where to start, that’s the place to start. Because it walks you through sexual and spiritual practices, to be able to get comfortable in your own skin. And I have to say, I mean, I wrote the book for women. But what’s been fascinating to me over these months, that now that it’s been out in the world, is the reaction that men are having to read it, and they are getting DMS, and people are reading reviews. And men are saying thank you, I feel like I got, you know, into a woman’s mind. And I just knew I understood women better.

There was one man who said, I’m 60 I’ve been awkward my whole life. And now I feel like I can actually go out there and date with some more confidence. That was, I mean, wow. You never know, you never know what your babies are going to do once they’re in the world, right? Yeah. But I think you know, obviously start to, to know your own body, to look at your body, to be able to carve out some time, that’s the thing. Also, in this vast world of fast food, fast cars, you know, fast fucking, it’s like, let’s slow down for a second. And that includes you and you, if you need to make a date with yourself, and have some self-care time a lot of ladies are thinking, Oh, I’m gonna do you know, to my mask on the face. Tonight, I’ll do a hair mask, you know, maybe I’ll do a little pedicures. I’m like, they think oh, a massage like that self-care. Lovely. But no, take real self-pleasure care. Date with yourself. Could be half an hour, it doesn’t have to be an entire weekend.

But spend some time specifically with your body, touching your skin, you know, maybe giving yourself a bit of an oil massage, rubbing your own breast, see what that you know, inspires you cup your vulva with your hand. I mean, there are so many things I could go on and on and on about how you can do this. The important thing is to carve out the time to be able to do it. Because if you don’t put it on your calendar, it’s sometimes just like when you’re in a relationship, right? If you don’t write down, we’re gonna have a date night tonight, baby, right? Like, it’s not gonna happen. We’re all living such full, busy, wonderful, rich lives. But you got to put time in for yourself.

Kevin Anthony 52:58
Absolutely, very, very well said, I love all the things that you are helping women with and all the things that you are teaching them. You know, since my wife has passed, one of the things that has been challenging for me is to be able to get that type of information across to women. I intellectually I know it all. But I’m not a woman, right? So I can only talk about, here’s what Céline would say about it, or here’s what your clients have, you know, described it to me but being able to actually be in a physical body and share your personal experiences about how it actually felt for you in your body. And, you know, the things that you did, I think is tremendously valuable. And I’m really glad that there are people out there that are doing that work. And you yours. So okay, so many more questions I really wanted to dive in, in this episode into, you know, the sex and spirituality piece and you know, whether or not they’re separate, or not, which, you know, we touched on very, very surface level.

Anybody who’s listened to my show knows that because I’ve covered this in multiple other episodes with other people. But every time I have an opportunity to talk about it, I like to talk about it because I keep I really want to just hammer that point home that they are not separate. Just like you said earlier. You can call it Mojo. You can call it chi you can call it gene. You can call lifeforce energy, universal energy. There are a couple more I’m not even recalling at the moment, but it’s all the same thing. Yeah, right. So, yeah, I’d like to keep reinforcing that theme throughout all of these episodes, because, as you as you mentioned earlier, there has been a deliberate attempt to separate our sexuality from our spirituality, in an attempt to disempower and control. Listen, the only way we can shift that is if we realize that they are not separate, and that they are all the same thing. If we can unite them and bring them back together, we suddenly become a whole lot more powerful in our lives and how we show up in the way that we can take control over our own lives, rather than having somebody dictate to us.

Deborah Kagan 55:20
Yeah, well, everything shows up in the bedroom. So you know, the way you are as a lover, right? It’s very much the way you are in the world as well.

Kevin Anthony 55:31
That is that, you know, I’ve never really thought about it actually, in that way, which is interesting, very rare that a guest comes on and states something that I hadn’t actually thought about, but, but I’ve never really thought about it in exactly those terms, which is yeah, how you show up in the bedroom is likely how you show up in the rest of the world. It’s interesting, because, you know, I work with a lot of men who deal with premature ejaculation.

And a couple of years ago, I noticed a pattern that repeated in those particular men. And I was like, okay, that’s really interesting. And I was hesitating, at first to bring it up with men. But then I just said, I just, we got to go there, we got to talk about this. And every time I have seen this pattern, and I have brought it up to a client, they’ve got your right. And that pattern is this. A lot of men who suffer from premature ejaculation are the types of men who want everything right away. They’re impatient, they want everything right away. And so when I see a man, and I can usually tell this in the first five minutes that I’m talking to him when I see him, and I just asked them general questions about, you know, oh, okay, what do you do for a living, and I just get a little bit of a picture of like, who they are. And I can instantly see that pattern show up. They want everything right away. And it’s the same, right, right?

So this is an illustration of exactly what you just said, how you show up in the bedroom is how you show up in the rest of your life in the bedroom, they want to go straight for that ejaculation. And they don’t even consciously know that they’re doing that, right. And then and then they’re wondering, well, why can I last longer? It’s because you’re all you’re focused on is, I gotta get straight to that thing, because you want the result get the thing you want everything right here right now, immediately, right? And so we can we can pinpoint that pattern in the bedroom by looking at their life outside the bedroom. And vice versa. Right.

Deborah Kagan 57:24
So you know, and it’s interesting, right? So much of the way we control ourselves, and we don’t realize we control ourselves or the way that we, you know, like, hold things close to our chest. And so we’re like clamped down. A lot of women have challenged, you know, a challenge orgasming with a partner, they can orgasm fine on their own, but if they’re with a partner, and not necessarily and so it’s like, oh, that you know, in terms of intimacy, or being comfortable, really becoming vulnerable. These are things that we can look to, and it sounds like it’s a whole other episode. But I’m glad I’m glad that at least I you know, scratch the surface of something that has not been talked about here before.

Kevin Anthony 58:01
Well, it’s been a fascinating conversation. I feel like there’s so much more that we could talk about. And at the same time, you know, there’s no way in an hour show we can possibly cover everything there is to know about a topic, the idea is to give people enough that they’re interested to want to know more. And so if they do want to know more, how do they find you?

Deborah Kagan 58:26
Well, Instagram is the place that I like to play the most. So you can find me on Instagram at Deborah Kagan, and my website as well. Deborah hyphen, kagan.com. That’s where you can get all sorts of, there’s a free video training there. But in light of this conversation, I really invite and I hope that all of the listeners if this has sparked something in you that you do, go and grab a copy of Undressed, the book is Undressed an invitation to claim your erotic nature. And that is going to support you in not only understanding this topic so much better but giving you real life, you know, entree into how to work with your spirit and your sex and put them together. And it’s such a way, that you can read the reviews. I love it. Of course, it’s my baby. But it really is. It’s great, it’s a great experience.

Kevin Anthony 59:21
And I would love to actually read that myself because obviously I’m a man but it really does help men get a better understanding of women and where they’re at then I would love to put it on the reading list that I give to all of my clients and people that sign up for my vault of free stuff. Because it’s interesting, like from the perspective of a man. I don’t know. I mean, I’m, I’m going to be turning 50 Very shortly.

Deborah Kagan 59:55
Welcome to the club.

Kevin Anthony 59:56
Thank you and I would say it probably took me about 40 years to truly understand women. I know that’s a bold claim, it’s a bold claim to say, I understand women. I’m not saying that I understand everything there is to know about them. But there are some fundamental parts of understanding women that I do at this point in my life. Finally, understand, and when you do understand that, as a man, it’s like, the enigma of the woman is suddenly no longer an enigma, it suddenly becomes stupid, simple, if you just understand a few basic things about how they operate, and what they need to feel safe in this world, and in this relationship, and in their sexuality. It’s just like, how did it take 40 years, especially, you know, granted, I haven’t been doing this work for 40 years, but I’ve been doing it for over a decade. And I was on a blog, you know, personal development journey for many years before I ever even did this work. And it still took me that long. So imagine, you know, what the journey is like, for most other people?

Deborah Kagan 1:01:07
Yeah, it’s actually quite simple. And we like to certainly we like to think that things can be more complicated. In the theater, the thing about the feminine, that’s, I think, so fascinating and frustrating to the masculine. And these are I’m talking qualities of energy, you know, anyhow, in terms of the binary here, but it’s not necessarily gender. But yeah, the thing that’s so frustrating and fascinating about the feminine is that once you think great that you’ve like, figured it out the feminine loves to just then throw in another curveball to keep you on your toes. So there are certain fundamentals, right, there are certain fundamentals that as you were saying, when you know them, that we then in terms of those of us who live more in our feminine for the majority of our life, that we just then want to give you everything, right, as I mentioned that once before, it’s like when you hold that space for us in the bedroom, and certainly when you hold that space in life, it’s just one of the most gorgeous gifts that you can give.

Kevin Anthony 1:02:09
It’s, it’s the key that really unlocks the amazing this powerfulness of the feminine, but she’s not gonna unlock unless certain things are men. And it’s really actually not that complicated. Once you understand.

Deborah Kagan 1:02:27
Yay, that you’re out there teaching those things, because we do need that so badly.

Kevin Anthony 1:02:32
Yes, we do. All right. Well, you know, there’s one last question that I have to ask you, even though we’re a little bit over time, because I asked it to all the guests should be a pretty easy question for you. And that is what is your best sexual talent?

Deborah Kagan 1:02:50
That’s hilarious. My best sexual talent? I would say the thing that’s coming through, cuz I mean, let’s face it there many. Sure. But I, you know, honestly, the thing, the thing that I constantly that I get feedback on, the most I would say is that how, how comfortable and how good should you create the space also, and to co-create this space? For the love of my lover and a man I’m mostly with, you know, men for my entire life, to feel amazing in their own skin and to feel great about themselves. And so, yeah, that something like that I hear feedback on all the time.

Kevin Anthony 1:03:40
Well, that’s wonderful. You know, I always believe that in any partnership, and even if you’re just coming together for lovemaking, that is a form of partnership, our goal really is to lift each other up through the experience.

Deborah Kagan 1:03:52
So yes, yeah. He was the one who said, I think the greatest skill is to like Leave, leave them better. I think better because there’s nothing wrong with the regard they were when they showed up, but more elevated, you know, within themselves. Right. And that’s, I think that is my greatest skill.

Kevin Anthony 1:04:11
Well, that is a fantastic skill to have amongst the many others I’m sure you also possess.

Deborah Kagan 1:04:21
You read the book, you’ll hear it, and you’ll learn a lot more about those. I’m looking forward to it.

Kevin Anthony 1:04:28
Alright, everybody, I hope that you found that interesting. You know, I think that it was valuable for both men and women. Obviously, if you’re a woman and you’ve had a glimpse into an awakening, this maybe could give you an idea of what to do next, or how to dive into that journey. If you haven’t yet had a glimpse, maybe this would pique some interest in starting to want to go in that direction. But also, for the men listening I mean, you heard some of what women need you heard some of what their experiences so if you happen To be on the receiving end of that you might know a little bit better now how to react in that situation. And you might also know a little bit better about what she needs from you on your end. So hopefully it was valuable for both men and women are different. Thank you one more time for coming on the show and sharing your story.

Deborah Kagan 1:05:21
I’m so grateful to be here. And thank you for having me.

Kevin Anthony 1:05:25
All right, everybody that’s all the time that I have for this episode and I will see you next week.

I hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoyed this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends. And for more free exclusive content. Join me in the passion vault at KevinandCéline.com/vault. That’s KevinandCéline.com/vault. Thanks for listening. And remember, as Céline used to say you’re amazing!