How Your Relationship Challenges Can Lead To Relationship Breakthroughs

Kevin Anthony 1 0:05
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, a safe and fun place to get real and learn about sex. Whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony. And I am here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom, and your relationships.

Kevin Anthony 0:26
Welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 303. And it is titled how your relationship challenges can lead to relationship breakthroughs. So what we’re going to be talking about today is obviously relationship challenges. But how those challenges can actually turn out to be some of the biggest breakthroughs that you’ve had in your relationship. And one of the things that I see is that we know, I mean, everybody has challenges in the relationship, but they beat themselves up over it because they think they shouldn’t be having challenges and they think that something’s wrong, or maybe it’s not the right relationship, because they are running into challenges. And so we kind of want to reframe that on the show today and say, you know, challenges actually can lead to breakthroughs and can be really beneficial to your relationship. Now, obviously, if you have constant challenges, and you’re not learning and growing from them, and you’re not deepening your relationship, then maybe, maybe you’re correct that it isn’t the right relationship. But we’ll talk about all of that stuff as we go through. If you are watching on YouTube, you can see that I have a guest with me today who I will introduce in a moment and he is going to help us tackle this subject.

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Okay, so today, my guest is Dan Purcell, Dan and his wife, Emily are the founders of Get Your Marriage On. They’re on a mission to strengthen marriages by making lovemaking incredibly fun and deeply connecting. They are also the creators of the popular Intimately Us and Just Between Us apps that have been downloaded over 750,000 times, hosts of the popular Get Your Marriage On podcast with over 1 million listens, and coach couples privately and in their program. So welcome to the Love Lab podcast.

Dan Purcell 3:04
Thank you happy to be here.

Kevin Anthony 3:06
All right. So as I said in the intro, we’re going to be talking about challenges and how they can potentially turn into some breakthrough. So I kind of alluded to this while I kind of set it out, right? But we talked about it a little bit in the pre-interview too, which is that, you know, you firmly believe that you’re supposed to run into problems or challenges in your relationship. So maybe explain a little bit about that. Why are we supposed to run into them?

Dan Purcell 3:34
I think it’s all like the purpose of relationships, especially long-term committed relationships are really designed to grow you up as a person. When you’re first attracted to your spouse, or your partner, whoever it is. And there’s a strong compelling attraction. And once you get together, you’re married, you have this honeymoon period for about, you know, 18 months or so. And you’re supposed to have that honeymoon period. But afterward, you enter what I call the sweatpants phase. And that’s where the things that initially attracted you to your spouse, those opposites that you admire in them, now become irritants and you’re like, if only they were more like me in this thing, we wouldn’t have these conflicts and they’re thinking the same thing about you, right? Like, if only you are more like them, then you want to have these problems. So herein lies the challenge and also the opportunity for REAL RELATIONSHIP growth. So I do think relationships are supposed to have these conflicts because, without these conflicts, you won’t have that, you know, environment for the personal development that you gain from being in a relationship with someone else.

Kevin Anthony 4:50
Yeah, absolutely. Well said. Last week on the show I had a psychologist on who has been practicing for over 40 years. And the term that he used was your marriage pounded you into the shape of the man that you are today?

Dan Purcell 5:10
Yes, exactly. So I heard it said another way like that, it’s like you, we always think we’re trying to change our marriage, but it’s really our marriage is trying to change us.

Kevin Anthony  5:22
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great, that’s a great way to put it. You know, when it comes to any long-term, committed relationship, whether it’s a marriage or not, you know, you have you as an individual, your partner as an individual, and obviously, you have the relationship as an entity as well. Right? There’s no way that you can be in a relationship with somebody else, and have this third entity of the relationship and not have it affect you or change you in some way. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So that’s a good thing. So let’s talk about so we understand sort of the opportunities that the challenges bring, we know that you’re going to have challenges, that’s a natural part of being in a relationship, and that those are also opportunities. Let’s talk about what are some of the possible benefits that individuals and couples could potentially receive as a result of these challenges. So like, we’re telling everybody, look, you’re gonna have challenges no matter what. So if there’s single people listening in, they’re gonna crap really do it? Do I really want to embark on this journey? Like, if it’s really gonna be that difficult? I know some people think that is right. So let’s, go over what are some of the possible benefits.

Dan Purcell 6:34
Yeah, sometimes that challenge feels like a kitchen remodel that you’ve been putting off. Like, you know, these cupboards don’t work anymore. We don’t have enough room to keep everything in its right spot. When it opens, the dishwasher always bangs against the kitchen island, like whatever, right? Like, we need a remodel that oh, the remodel, demolition days a big mess and everything. But once you like, decide, and commit to going through it, and you have the new finished remodeled kitchen, you’re like, holy cow, why didn’t we do this earlier? It’s so much better now. Like, you know, you went through that pain of the remodel, but it’s so much better after? I have a personal story on that. Yeah, if you want to hear that.

So my wife and I, met in middle school. We’ve been friends for a long time, but we didn’t date seriously until our young adult years when we got married. We both came from great families. And we’re both conservative backgrounds. Where even though we come from great families when it came to sex, it just wasn’t talked about a lot in our homes. Unbeknownst to us, we inherited a lot of anxiety about sex into our relationship, aka, we didn’t talk about sex, even in our own marriage, where if we did it, it wasn’t we’re always really careful to not hurt each other’s feelings. And always thought it was better to, to not voice a concern, out of fear of upsetting your spouse rather than to really be, I guess, looking back, it sounds like I wasn’t being fully honest with everything. But as always, like, well, you just don’t talk about it, because others don’t talk about it. Until we’ve been married for over 13 years. At this point. I was talking with a friend. And this friend opened up to me about his sex life with his wife. Now, this isn’t a typical kind of conversation I’d normally have. And I was blushing the whole time. I was uncomfortable the whole time. But I guess you could say I had morbid curiosity is like, Oh, you and your wife do that. Wait, tell me more. No, no, don’t tell me. Tell me more. No, no, no, don’t tell me. And he told me about all of these fun, what I thought were fun and fascinating things.

But I didn’t know couples did that. Or they’re allowed to do that. That’s for other people, not, not for good upright, like couples and long-term relationships. Like you can do that. And he wasn’t telling me these things to brag, or anything like that. He was trying to get my attention and tell me like, Hey, Dan, once my wife and I really started focusing on improving our sexual relationship, like we’re communicating better, you know, we’re parenting together better, I’m doing better at my work. Like all these benefits that start to flow into our life, once our sex life is improved, and he had something that I didn’t have, and I could recognize that and I wanted that. But then I have this challenge. Wait, my wife and I don’t talk about these things. We have no pattern or experience talking about these things. Yet on the other side, it’s like that kitchen remodel, right? It’s like on the other side, I would love to have kind of a glimpse of what I saw my friend have I want that in my own marriage. So that brought in with it a relationship challenge. So that’s like an example we’re talking about what I had this big challenge now with my wife to talk about things we’re both unaccustomed talking about very awkward talking about, and how are we going to improve? Like, I was hoping she jumped on board with me to like, how are we going to do this? And I had no idea how she might respond or react. So that’s like an example of a challenge.

Kevin Anthony 10:19
Yeah. And I definitely want to get into how she reacted and how this went in just a moment. But before we do that, I just want to come back to some of the things that you said. So I think a lot of people have a very similar experience to you in that growing up sex was not really talked about in the house at all. I know that’s the way it was, for me growing up, it was not talked about at all. It was basically, you know, it’s sort of like the old military policy. Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Right. The problem with that, though, is you are left to learn from sources that aren’t particularly good.

Dan Purcell 10:57
Or you make a lot of assumptions, and you fill in the blanks.

Kevin Anthony 11:00
Or you learn through trial and error, you screw a bunch of things up, hopefully not too bad, where nobody’s permanently hurt. Yeah, but it’s not, it’s really not the best way to learn. But unfortunately, that’s where most people are at because they’re not as comfortable as your friend was in talking about it. This is actually one of the things that, you know, people who know me personally, outside of the work that I do say all the time, like, it’s just so and actually I get this all the time from people who listen to the show, too. One of the most common pieces of feedback is, I can’t believe how easily you talk about these subjects, you know, and for me, I’ve been doing it for so long, it just feels like, you know, normal, right? But, for other people, I realized that it’s still really difficult. It’s really difficult for most people to have these kinds of conversations. You know, my wife Céline, when she was alive, she was the queen at just blurting out, like we could be at a dinner party, you know, she would just outright say so, you know, like, so how’s your sex life? Yeah. Or something would come up. And she’d be like, well, you guys do that right?

Dan Purcell 12:15
What about the table next door that is eavesdropping?

Kevin Anthony 12:19
Yeah, you can catch them glancing out of the corner. They always wanted to know what was going on at the table next time, but they were afraid to actually like really pay attention, secretly they wish they were at your table. Exactly. But here’s, here’s the beauty of it. And the benefit of it is exactly what you experienced personally, which is that by her always bringing that up and starting the conversation, or by me having these conversations on the show, still, it makes it okay for other people to talk about it. Because you realize, like your friend is, you know, obviously he wouldn’t be your friend if he wasn’t a decent person, right? Somebody that right, you thought, a good person. And so now you’re seeing him and hearing him talk about these things in a way that you’re not used to. And you’re going, oh, oh, I can do that. Oh, that’s okay. And that’s huge for most people. Absolutely. Huge. Right, right. Yeah.

Kevin Anthony 13:11
So next, I want to I just have really wanted to reiterate that. I just wanted people to know, that we understand that. For most people. Sex is not easy to talk about and you you weren’t taught by your parents. So Right. Okay. That’s, that’s okay. A lot of us are in the same boat. Now you have the opportunity as an adult to learn what you didn’t learn before. And it’s perfectly okay. I’m curious now, though, because when you told your personal story, you were like, Okay, I realized that we can do this, we can talk about these things, or we can actually do these things. But obviously, in a relationship, this is a co-creation between you and your wife, and you have to get her on board. So I know that a lot of men have this same challenge because I hear it all the time. They come in, they work with me, and then they go, how do I enroll my wife? How do I get her on board? So what was your wife’s reaction? And how did you enroll her in this idea?

Dan Purcell 14:10
Gotcha. So we had my friend and I had this conversation, you know, really afternoon, and I had work to do, I wasn’t going to be home till the evening. So I had a lot of time to kind of stew on it. I was really distracted with my work that afternoon, as you can imagine. So when we got home, we have a busy household. We have six children. We’re both really involved in a lot of things. So all I could say to her at that moment is like, I really want to talk to you tonight. I’m just so excited. And she could see she could tell something. Something was different. And I don’t know I was probably a little extra touchy-feely at that moment, right like because I’ve been thinking about this so kids go to bed, and I first thing you need to know about my wife and I, as we have a great friendship, we have this great foundation. And it wasn’t just before we were married. But even throughout our marriage, we’ve maintained a really strong friendship. And we prioritize each other like we talked about right you have a you meet and we prioritize this. We were good at getting out of the house finding babysitters, like to go on dates, and keeping our channels open, like so we have this great foundation already.

So that I can I had enough confidence going into the conversation that shall at least we can at least talk about it. But there’s still that in trepidation in me. Right? So that’s another stage for development is we often come across these, these dilemmas or these two-choice dilemmas. Where do I really say what I think because there’s risk involved in, how this might be perceived? But is it in line with my integrity? So looking back, I guess I wasn’t thinking along those terms. But that’s what’s really goes on internally, we have this internal struggle. And it takes courage. And so I told her about the story. I told him, my friend told my wife, everything that I heard, and then I kind of, because I’ve been thinking about all afternoon, it kind of put my own thoughts on it. And I was genuinely interested in what she wanted to know, actually, to be perfectly honest. One of the things my friend told me was his wife came how his whole situation started was his wife came to him. And basically, she told him that she was not satisfied in bed and that he needed to up his game. And so I’m going now approaching my wife, really self-conscious, like maybe she thinks I’m not a good enough lover, like, do I need to up my game in bed? Are there concerns that she’s had that she’s never voiced to me? So that was kind of the content of our conversation, too. It was very self-confronting to like, Hey, I don’t know if I’m like, tell us about what we think.

Kevin Anthony
Can I pause you for just a moment? I want to make sure people heard a few of the things that you said. So because I get this question all the time from men, which is like, you know, how do I approach my wife like how, like, I want to do something about this, but I don’t know how to enroll her. So I want to just reiterate a couple of things that you just said. Number one, it started off with having a solid foundation. Yes, right. So so my first piece of advice is like if you don’t have a solid foundation, where you can talk about anything without the relationship degrading into, you know, arguments or whatever, work on building that foundation first, right so that you can approach these delicate subjects. The second thing that you said was the way you approached her was out of excitement. Right. So it wasn’t it wasn’t that dreaded. We have to talk. Right?

Dan Purcell
I was nervous, yeah, right.

Kevin Anthony 18:09
But the thing is, you know, most people, and often men think about this from the other direction, whereas the woman comes to them says, We need to talk, right? And it’s like, oh,

Dan Purcell 18:18
It’s confrontational.

Kevin Anthony 18:19
It’s confrontational. So the way that you handled it you’re like, I’m super excited to have this conversation with you. So now you’re building an excitement to have the conversation rather than a dread like, man to have another one of those. Right. So that’s, that’s yet another important piece. And then the third one is that you were approaching it from Oh, I wonder if she’s not satisfied with me rather than going into that conversation with the I’m not happy with how you’re showing up. Right? Yes. Right. So those are huge reframes. For any guys listening. You want to enroll your wife, make sure you have a solid foundation, approach it from a hey, let’s have a great conversation. This is good. This is supposed to be fun. And I just want to find out how you’re doing like, what do you need, you know, how’s it going for you, rather than I’m not happy, and I’m not getting enough sex, and you don’t give me enough? blowjobs? And you don’t, you don’t you don’t? Right, which is, unfortunately, how a lot of people approach things. So I just want to make sure people truly understood that because that’s really important, what you just shared. So now, please continue on with the story.

Dan Purcell 19:26
So we’re up to probably at 2 am That night, talking in depth about and we were having the most vulnerable conversation about our sexual relationship that we’ve ever had to that point in our marriage. And then it continued the next night and the next night. So we’re just having really deep conversations. And we’re, we’re both coming to realize that, you know, we there’s a lot more here that we need to know, and it’s time we finally address this in our relationship and start learning together. So well, that’s another blessing I think that happened for us is, we were both on the same page, we’re both on board with like, yes, we both want to learn more about this. So we started, like, I’m a nerd. So I started with books, books made a lot of sense. We found a few books and started reading them together on podcasts, found blogs. And our biggest concern and all this is can we find information that’s in line with our values because there’s a lot of stuff out there that we know.

But it just it really triggers a disgust response in us, it feels icky, or kind of out, because it’s outside of our value system, We want to keep things in line to value system. And to our great relief, we found plenty of very positive sex-positive material that was also in line with our values. And that was like an inflection point for us. And so fast forward two or three months, our marriage had completely changed from the old marriage, and it felt like a brand new marriage, and the new marriage is way, way, way better. And we started the experience with my friend was telling us like, we’re communicating better, we’re sleeping better co-parenting together, the co-parenting mean, we’re a better team with our parenting and the sky is bluer and the grass is greener and everything in life, it seems to be like, have more zest, we had more of that arrows, the energy just flowing through us more, because we got this part of our marriage that we didn’t realize is out of alignment into alignment. And we’re just reaping the benefits of that at that time. Yeah,

Kevin Anthony 21:37
I mean, if there was a better advertisement for doing this work, I don’t know what it is. I mean, doesn’t everybody want that kind of energy in their life? Doesn’t everybody want their relationship to be that way? I think they do. They may not know how to go about getting it. But I’m pretty sure that’s what everybody would like. I want to make a comment. Also, you did mention at the beginning of the podcast, that you and your wife came from conservative families. And you just sort of reiterated again, that when you were seeking out information around your you know, improving your sex life, you were looking for stuff that was in line with your values. And this is really important, I think everybody should always look for things that are in line with their values. 100%.

But one of the things, the point I kind of want to make here on this is that the true teachings around sexuality are not in conflict with conservative or Christian values. They’re not they are, you know, I actually did an episode on this show a long time ago, my wife and I did called I think it was sex and spirituality, are they mutually exclusive? And what I wanted to show in that was that the overwhelming amount of things you’ve been told about sexuality are not actually in the Bible, Christian or Jewish, or any of the mainstream religious teachings at all. It’s just stuff made up by people, right? And then if you actually get to the core of the teachings, they’re pretty basic, you know, they’re things like don’t have incest, don’t you know, sleep with your brothers, or your neighbor’s wife does like the pretty basic stuff, right? You know, the majority of what we’re told about sexuality really doesn’t conflict with that. Now, there is, of course, a whole bunch of other stuff that is often added into and mixed up with sexuality, that would be in conflict, potentially, with Christian values.

But I really want to make the point that that stuff isn’t necessarily related to sexuality itself. It’s just mixed in there, right? You read it, it’s like you can you can do anything from, you know, the point of view of, you know, wanting to do good versus wanting to do bad, like, What’s your intention with it? Right? Yeah. And I think the problem that a lot of conservatives run into with sex is that they see sex used in a negative way, throughout society so much.

Dan Purcell 24:14
That they wholesale discount the whole thing as evil and bad being right. That’s the point. They ignore the good, right, or they minimize the good that it can do. And that’s so this is a great segue into a conversation of stages of development.

Kevin Anthony 24:31
That’s exactly where I wanted to go next. So let’s go.

Dan Purcell 24:34
So I borrow this idea from many great thinkers. It’s not my own. To make it simple, I put it into three categories, three stages, stage one, two and three. And stage one just briefly, stage one is generally it’s the self-centered stage. Think about it like this, my children I have a two-year-old when my youngest was a two-year-old. For example. I everything’s black and white to them, right you don’t cross the street. You, you it’s very much based on rules. There’s because there’s not a lot of comprehension or capacity to comprehend, comprehend the reason behind the rules yet. So everything’s about black and white, this is the way it is. And it’s the way it is. And then as they grow and develop, are like starting around age four to age eight, and into adolescence, you start to realize that other people have different ways of thinking than I think. In other words, other people’s opinions start to matter. And that’s a good and healthy part of our development. That’s where we absorb values from parents, teachers, and family culture, this is how we become friends, and this is how we realize how to be successful.

Because this is good for society, we need societies where people get along and can work together in harmony. And that involves the capacity to know what other people are thinking, and to recognize that your behavior has an impact on other people and other people have an impact their behavior has an impact on you. But if that’s where our development stops, then we’re overly concerned with what other people think. And we don’t develop a real self in that. And so stage three is a self-authoring stage. And this is the stage where it is about self-leadership. This is where you decide for yourself, what are my values are going to be not purely only dictated because of what other people think. But what’s important to me, and am I choosing this? Because I want it or am I choosing because other people want it. And the way I think about this isn’t you discard your previous stages of development when as you progress, but it’s more like those Russian nesting dolls, you still have a core self. And then you add on to stage two and stage three as you continue to grow and develop.

When it comes to sexuality. For me, it was I was very stage one thinking my wife and I were early in our marriage, black and white. This is okay, this is not okay, this is bad. This is good. Without a lot of thought into why we think the way we do it was just we just inherited it was just the way we thought about sex. And as we went through this growth phase together, it really invited us into the next stage of development where it’s like my friends saying, you know, we’ve done these things, and they’re actually good for us. Now I want what my friend wants, like, ah, other people can enjoy this. I would like that, too.

Kevin Anthony 27:35
Yeah, that’s huge. That in and of itself is already a big step forward.

Dan Purcell 27:41
So that’s the next stage of AMA, other people want that I want this too. And part of it, too, is maybe digging into more like what do other people say? That’s like looking into reading books, right? What is this author’s stance on this item, or on this item, or, or whatever. And you start to align yourself with other people’s thoughts and ideas on those things. We’re losing that podcast, which are all very helpful for our growth and development. But ultimately, we don’t want to end there. We want to learn for ourselves to become more of our own authority, based on the truths and other things that we have learned from others, in our experience, how to become our very best selves, and lead ourselves through that.

Kevin Anthony 28:25
Yeah, and that is a huge, huge step forward. That is. If you could at least get that far. You’re on the right track. Right?

Dan Purcell 28:36
Yep. But it’s gonna be scary because each stage is like that kitchen remodel all over again. Because it will require a bigger investment in yourself. And sometimes it means discarding things that you’ve really held on too tightly. And it can’t, it feels like it comes at a real cost. Because it’s that decision, do I stay here, but stay small, or whatever the frame is into something bigger, but there’s more risk because it’s still unknown territory. But that’s human development. That’s how we get to the moon. That’s how we climbed Mount Everest. That’s how we do great ocean voyages. This is or, you know, this new surgeries, whatever this is always involves a lot of risk, a lot of development. And it’s pushing. It’s the same with a sex life.

Kevin Anthony 29:28
Yeah, absolutely. So you know, those stages and what you’re describing, you know, you could use the same thing for just trying to figure out, you know, the information war that’s happening in the world, right? In other words, you know, there’s a lot of information being put out there, the majority of it is literally disinformation, propagate propaganda. And so the idea is like how, how do we figure out what’s what we would have to go through those stages we would have to be open to the fact that may Be what we’ve been told isn’t necessarily the truth, we would have to be willing to investigate new ideas and maybe try some of them on well, okay, why don’t you know, you’ve got to go through those stages no matter what you do. So that is a very useful life skill, regardless of what area of your life you’re applying it to. In this case, we’re talking about applying it to your sex life. Right? And if most people were taught the kinds of stuff that you and I were taught when we were younger, yeah, you better you better go through this process, probably a few times.

Dan Purcell 30:35
Yes. And expect conflict as you go through this, because that’s part of the process.

Kevin Anthony 30:43
Potentially, yeah. Which we’ll talk about in a moment. I want to take a quick break, though, for the second sponsor. And then yeah, let’s come, let’s come back and talk about the potential conflicts that can come up in that process.

Are you a couple are your relationship and sex life where you want them to be Are there changes you would like to make but just don’t know how, maybe you think there is nothing that can be done, if you are not 100% happy with where your relationship or sex life is, then go today and get help and change your life. You can go to KevinandCéline.com/sex-coaching-couples. Don’t worry about the long link, it’s in the description, and schedule a strategy call with me today. So we can map out a strategy to get you where you want to be. So you can have it all your way. That is KevinandCéline.com/sex-coaching-couples. The link is in the description. Also, if you are listening to this, and of course, I will give Dan an opportunity to share at the end of this episode where you can find out more about him. But if you like what Dan is sharing, and you would like to work with him and his wife, check that out, too. I’m all for working with the person that resonates with you the most. So I’ll give Dan an opportunity to share that later. But the idea here is, if you need help with this stuff, you don’t maybe you’re in stage one, you can’t get to stage two, or maybe there’s conflicts or whatever’s going on in your life with your relationship, and your sex life. You don’t have to go in alone, you don’t have to try to solve these issues by yourself. When you have no experience and no idea what to do. There are people out there who can and want to help you such as myself and such as Dan, so go check that out.

Okay, so let’s talk about this, right, you’re going through these three stages, and there are potential conflicts that will come up. So let’s talk about that. What kind of conflicts might come up? And how would you navigate those?

Dan Purcell 32:34
Great. So I told you the story of that. How my friend told me about him and he I told a story about how my friend told me about him and his wife, and how that kind of rocked our world and how that set this stage for our own sexual development to flourish. But that’s only chapter one of our story. Chapter Two unfolds with growing differences in sexual desire in our own relationship. Over the next few months, years kind of drifted to where we had mismatched libidos, I want sex a lot, and my wife, not so much. And that opened the door for new conflicts and new growth. Whereas one particular day, we’re having another discussion about how it wasn’t frequent enough. And my wife is saying, Look, I homeschool our kids, I cook all the meals, I I’ve gotten this response, doesn’t that responsibility? How do you expect me to sit down and read all these books you want me to read? Like, how do you expect me to work on me growing sexually when there’s so much going on? And it’s and she’s, you know, these are all very fair, legitimate points. And by this time, I’ve started doing a lot more work in, in this field.

So I’m exposed to a lot more ideas. I’m working with other people a lot more. I started developing my apps that started taking off which required a lot of research. So I’m kind of in it every day, and she’s not. And she’s like, it’s not fair that we have these differences when you’re in and all day and I’m not and you expect me to be at your level. So I said, Fine. Let’s do something about this. I will take over meal prep, meal planning, cleanup, and cooking everything for two weeks, and then exchange you’ll have a free up, I don’t know, an hour or two of your time every day. And you can spend that time reading a book. And by the way, the book I wanted her to read I had read it probably twice I highlighted it doggy eared it notes in the margin. I read this pay attention to this part. Oh, I’ve got just a book for you to read do this one. Right?

And another thing about just to paint the picture in the background in our relationship, there’s always been conflict over dinner time. Oftentimes at that time in our marriage, dinnertime was around seven 738 o’clock at night. And after, you know, dinner and dinner cleanup and everything, kids are found in bed, we’re exhausted, and there’s no couple of time anymore. And if only we could have dinner earlier then we would have an earlier evening. And then we would finally have time together. So for those two weeks that took over meals, guess what, I not only cooked great, nutritious meals that my wife had not worried about at all. I can cook and I can cook well. I also got dinner done at 530 Every day, and I still maintain a full-time job. And I let my wife know that, like, Hey, I work all day and I can get dinner on time. I don’t know what your problem is. But you can get dinner on time.

Kevin Anthony 35:53
Ooh, I see where this is going.

Dan Purcell 35:57
I remember one time, we’d go to my in-laws house just to visit and I was trying to be the like, look like the good son-in-law, right? Like I’m bragging. I’m taking over meals for two weeks, and I’m rocking it. Look, I’m a good husband, I am my wife is like she’s got all this free time now because I took over meals. So my wife is in the bedroom supposedly reading this book that I had prescribed to her with all of my margins, kind of pointing out all of her flaws, and where I see where she has a problem and the deadweight in our marriage. And I’m out there clanking pots, pots, and pans, and letting her know how good the meal was, and how good it was that we have family time and that we can relax in the evening. So do you think for those two weeks, she was in that room like feeling loved and supported? And like encouraged? And quote unquote, sexual development?

Kevin Anthony 36:59
You’re lucky she didn’t hit you over the head with one of those pans.

Dan Purcell 37:03
Exactly. I would have deserved it. But do you see, I was self-deceived in it. I took a one-up superior stance to addressing our sexual concerns. I was condescending to my wife. I looked at her as you’re the problem. I had it figured out and you don’t. And I let it show in my behavior, even though I might not say it in words. But that was the energy coming off from me. So you can’t solve relationship conflicts in the same stage of development that used to create that level of conflict, right, you can’t go into you can’t solve the conflict at the same level of maturity it took to create that conflict in the first place.

Kevin Anthony 37:48
That’s the famous Einstein quote. Right?

Dan Purcell 37:50
Exactly living it out right. Now, I’d be so frustrated about our sex life, at times, I tie my shoelaces on at 10 o’clock at night and go on a run just to like, bleed off of this pent-up energy and frustration. And it wasn’t until I got excellent coaching myself that I could look in the mirror and like, Oh, I’m the problem in the relationship I didn’t, at least for me, it was my superior stance, my one-up superior stance and the condescension is antithetical to creating a intimate relationship, which is really what I wanted. In order to have an intimate relationship. You have to be equals, like you. If if you create any hierarchy in that relationship, and not that you might have different roles. But anytime you break rankings, sorry, you create rank and create hierarchies, where one person is superior. And it’s across different dimensions, of course, in this case, sexually. If you can’t have an intimate relationship, we’re biologically programmed as humans not to be attracted to people who are superior to us or below us that we depend on. Like, you’re not buying, like we’re not attracted to our children or to our parents, or things like that, where it’s just against our programming. So when we create kind of that sort of a dynamic in relationship to any degree, passion goes out, there’s the first thing to go out the window. You can kind of maintain a pseudo sense through obligation and duty. But that’s not what I wanted to create. I wanted something more real and intimate.

Kevin Anthony 39:35
I want to pause you again just for a moment. Because I do want listeners to understand that your original thought process for taking over the meals was a good one. That was actually a good idea. It’s the way you went about it that turned it into not such a good idea. In other words, you know, your wife was absolutely right when she was telling you I’m homeschooling I’m doing all the cooking, I’m doing all the love, you know. And as you said, by the time that kids are in bed, it’s nine o’clock at night 930. At night, everybody’s exhausted, all she wants to do is crash, right? So one of the things, one of the important pieces of advice I often give my clients is, you know, if you want her to show up for you in the bedroom, figure out how you can help take some of those tasks off her plate to free her up, because even if she has the time because she maybe let some of those things go, she’s in the bedroom, and all her mind can think about is all those things right? Because they haven’t yet done. So the idea is to try to take some of that off her plate and create a little bit of space for her to get out of her head into her body and be able to become sexual. So that was a good idea. But it was the way that you had an agenda.

Dan Purcell 40:47
Yeah, yes, exactly. So that advice is good. And I’ve read that advice in her that no, it’s motivated me to oh, I’ll just take over meals or whatever it might be, tell me name it, and I’ll do it. Right. But there’s, there’s a covert agenda behind it all. I’m here to it’s a transaction, I’m doing this so that you do something for me, I’m really not interested in and invested in my wife more, there’s a self-preoccupation in it, I’m doing this so that I would get what I want out of it. And that’s where that advice breaks down. So for listening to that advice, where they say chore plays a new foreplay, it only works when it’s really done genuinely, as, because you’re a team, it’s when you make life a team sport, and you’re genuinely invested in the other person, when it’s self-serving, like the way I did it, it does not work at all.

Kevin Anthony 41:41
Yeah, and you know, I would add to another thing that could be helpful in that situation is, rather than prescribing her, you’ve got to read this, just create the space for her and then allow her to fill it with the methods that she wants. So in other words, some people like listening to audiobooks instead, or she might choose books by female authors, instead of a male author, you know, because the voice is different, and it resonates more with her, but give her the space to explore. So you have the shared intention, right? Create the space for her, and then let her go through her own process on that end, rather than saying, you can read this book.

Dan Purcell 42:19
Absolutely, yes. However, if I were to rewind the clock back to the level of maturity, I was at that point, I would have been so afraid to tell my wife, you can choose whatever you want, and do whatever you want. Because I wanted to control the outcome. Right, I wanted her to read this book, because this author said this thing. And to me, that’s what my wife wants. So it would require, we do this a lot in our relationships, we want our spouse to have a choice, kind of, but we’re afraid of the choice that they will make would be against what we really want. So we start eliminating options. So in the end, they’re only left with one choice, so that we get what we want out of it. So it’s about self-reinforcement. But you’ve taken away a choice.

And because there’s no choice, there’s no agency for them in it. There is no growth, there is no development, and there is no passion. I love the movie Beauty and the Beast by Disney. It’s a classic example of this. And the most critical point is when the last rose petals is going to fall and they’re going to stay like as creatures forever. The Beast, let’s go. Everyone’s like what are you doing? There’s a dumb mistake. Why did you let Belle go? Right? Because he realized he had to really give her that choice. And we’re faced with that dilemma. That’s another conflict that we face in our marriages that pushes us on our development, can I really trust my wife? enough that she will make the best choices for herself? Even if that choice doesn’t reinforce what I want? And can I love her in that? That that’s that’s the mature? That’s the real question that I was confronting. And so it was a scary decision. I didn’t want to face the possibility of her choosing otherwise,

Kevin Anthony 44:17
You know, I was I was waiting for a moment to come in and literally say, you need to trust her. And you beat me to it. But yeah, I need to try to you know, okay, outside of just sex and relationship. If you’ve done any sort of personal development work, especially in the context of a couple, you know, that it’s not like, Okay, if you’re listening, I’ve had my hands. They’re on the same level, and I’m moving them up at exactly the same rate, right? We’re both we’re in this we’re both staying right here next week. That’s not the way personal development works. It doesn’t even work like this where one is up and then the other is that like, it’s not even varying levels of up. It’s up and then over here and then over there and then over here, like it’s moving all over the place. But the idea is the general trend should be coming together through personal development. But we’ve all got our own path.

I was in a relationship years ago, and I thought this woman actually was much, much younger. I thought this woman actually would eventually be my wife. It didn’t work out that way. But we were both deeply involved in a personal growth, journey. And, but we went about it in completely different ways. So you know, you and I talked in the pre-interview, you know, we both have a background in computers and technology, right? So for me, I was all about reading books I loved but give me a book, I could internalize that, figure out how it works, and like, reuse it, you know, no problem. She didn’t like books, but you know, she would buy a lot of books, but she would never really get around to reading them. But she loved workshops. Like, she would just go to a workshop, and that would click for her, you know, so for us, we were both on the personal development journey, but we would take it from different points of view, I was not so much into the workshop thing, you know, it’s just just give me a book, I just, I’ll go sit in the corner and read it by myself, you know, but he was like, Yeah, you know, I want to go. So we were like that we were kind of moving all over the place in different ways. But we were continually growing together. Of course, you might ask if you were continuing to grow together, why did the relationship not work out, that’s a story for another day. That has nothing to do with the personal growth journey. By the way, there was another life complicating life factor that came in there.

But that’s the point is, is that these journeys are not always just, you know, you’re both going in exactly the same rate, and you’re in the same place at the same time, all the time, it’s going to vary, you’re going to be here, they’re everywhere. But as long as you’re both committed to the path and the journey, it shouldn’t necessarily matter. In other words, if she wants to read another book doesn’t really matter. As long as she’s invested in wanting to build the intimacy and you know, improve the sex in the relationship and improve the connection, then, it doesn’t really matter what books she reads, or whether or not she goes to a workshop, or she listens to an audiobook, or, you know, for a woman, I would say that probably if you gave her an extra hour every day, that at least half of that time would probably be spent doing some personal care so that she could actually calm her nervous system down to even begin to think about wanting to read books. And that’s perfectly fine, too, you know? Right?

Okay, so we’re getting pretty close to the end of the show, I got a whole bunch more questions that we’re definitely not gonna get. It’s okay, I think we’ve done a great job of illustrating to people and I love that you brought in your personal story as well, that, you know, you can’t have challenges in the relationship, that’s okay, those challenges can absolutely lead to some of the biggest breakthroughs. And we gave some real-life examples of that. So I think that’s really great. Understanding the stages of development is a great framework for you to realize, Oh, I’m here, or they’re there. And you know, that can help you work through this. I’m wondering if you can maybe just share a couple of tools that you and maybe your wife used, or maybe not maybe things that you use with your clients, that have been really helpful in going through this process, just like a couple of like, you know, we work with this one, that one, just so people get an idea of a few of the types of things that might work well for them if they want to embark on this type of journey.

Dan Purcell 48:40
Very good, great. Lots of tools. So I came across Dr. David snart. He’s a PhD, he’s passed away now. But he, what I really liked about him as he was trained as a sex therapist, and realized a lot of the traditional American sex therapy approaches weren’t really sticking and working when it comes to couples work. So he became a couples therapist, and then found out a lot of the therapy that they do and with couples work doesn’t help the sex therapy. So he’s, he’s kind of embarked on his own research and created more of an intimacy-based model for sex therapy. And he’s written many books and these are really like, and he, he takes this approach of, it’s all about stages of development and growth. The purpose of marriage is to grow you up. The challenges are having, you can thank them because you’re going to grow up if you choose to work through them. And I so I use a lot of those kinds of tools with individuals and that sounds a little abstract. Let’s let’s get real specific.

One tool that I really like couples to work on is that helps with their own nervous system regulation is also a, it’s also beautiful and symbolic because the two main human drives that we have is the need to belong to ourselves. And the need to belong to someone else. autonomy and attachment. Those two drives are always competing against each other. And in order to make sex really good, you need to have both in balance and at play. You need to be able to relax your enough into the experience that you can receive the connection and the stimulation and the arousal, while also being close to your partner in it, so that it’s a great love-making experience also. So you need these dual mechanisms, autonomy, and attachment working in tandem really well. The thing is, we’re not good at that. So one of the practices that Dr. David Schwartz prescribes that I prescribe to my clients is a hugging exercise. And you can do this fully clothed, but the challenge is to hug for eight to 10 minutes, which to some people like sounds crazy, they’ve never hugged that long before. And that’s the challenge in it, because and it really is a meta exercise. What is it about hugging for eight to 10 minutes is hard for you to start dissecting that and pulling that apart, or is one person really enthusiastic about hugging and the other person feels claustrophobic in it, that’s really telling them what it’s like a microcosm of what the whole relationship is doing. And from that, you have good information on how to address and fix the problems in the relationship. So you have a better sex life as a couple.

So that’s one idea. So you stand, stand apart. And the point is, you’re not like leaning on each other in the hug, you want to support your own body weight with your arms around each other. And your goal is two things. One is to calm down, that’s the first part, right? Autonomy settling into yourself, deep breathing, or whatever it is to really calm yourself down. And number two is to be really tuned in to your spouse and your spouse’s experience in that. So it’s to connect with them while calming yourself down. And it’s a practice you can do, you can do that every night for a month, or whatever. And you will learn so you’ll grow in your capacity to be more present in sex to enjoy sex better, hopefully, or at least you’ll start seeing things manifest, the challenges you get from a hug, are going to tell you what things you need to look forward to specifically work on an address in a relationship.

Kevin Anthony 52:29
Great, yeah, that sounds like a great tool. You know, there’s so many tools out there, I’m sure you’ve got a whole toolbox of stuff. I mean, I do I have a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah. And, and that how you practice is not in my toolbox, right? Because there’s tons of stuff out there. You know, obviously, you can go read books, you know, you can hire people like Dan or myself, there’s a ton of support and tools out there for you if you are really struggling with this. And you know, I have to say, it’s very rare that I run into a couple who isn’t somewhere along the line in this journey. And you know, some of them are doing good on it. Some of them are struggling with it. But like everybody’s going through the journey. There’s nobody that’s really like, that’s it. I’ve hit the end. And it’s awesome, right?

Dan Purcell 53:23
No, growth doesn’t stop. Right.

Kevin Anthony 53:25
So why don’t you tell people where they can find out more about you and your work? And if they’re looking for support on this journey? How can they find you?

Dan Purcell 53:38
Great. There are three places. The first is I have a podcast called Get Your Marriage On. And it’s an interview-style podcast I bring on guests. It’s a fun podcast, we talk about intimacy and marriage. Second is I have an app called Intimately Us and you read it at the beginning in my bio, but it really is a fun app for couples to just make sex more creative and fun. It’s basically a bedroom game app with a bunch of resources. And the third is my website, get your marriage on.com. And that’s where I offer my coaching program. It’s an intimacy-based model, towards sexual intimacy for couples. And you can find all that at get your marriage on.com Awesome.

Kevin Anthony 54:23
All right, I got one last question for you. It’s one that I asked everybody that comes on the show. And since you have been through this journey, and you and your wife have now mastered the sexual piece of your relationship, this should be an easy question to answer and that is what is your best sexual talent?

Dan Purcell 54:45
Oh my, my talent. Yeah. This is really personal.

Kevin Anthony 54:52
Well, it all depends on how you choose to answer it.

Dan Purcell 54:56
Well, I’ll answer it by saying what I’ve been working on lately, sexually that’s been absolutely a lot of fun and in great. And that is there’s a lot of been working on I’ll say this eyes open sex. And that can be, you can take that literally or metaphorically, but it’s about in the sexual experience to be completely together because you want to be together, eyes open, wanting to see the other person as they are. We’re the opposite eyes closed sex is closed-off sex. It’s like Hurry up, can you get this done? I want to move on or physically with you. But I really don’t want to be with you. That’s that’s the opposite. So it’s about being eyes open and being fully in the process. And it takes on a tantric sex quality in that, I think because it’s really about taking in the full experience taking in your the other person fully, and just basking in their presence and enjoying it.

Kevin Anthony 56:00
That’s a great skill to have. All right, Dan, thank you for coming on the show and sharing your knowledge and wisdom.

Dan Purcell 56:10
All right, thanks.

Kevin Anthony 56:13
All right, everybody. That’s all the time I have for this episode. And I will see you next week.

I hope you like this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends. And for more free exclusive content. Join me in the passion vault at KevinandCéline.com/vault. That’s KevinandCéline.com/vault. Thanks for listening. And remember, as Céline used to say you’re amazing!