So You Want To Be Monogamish

Kevin Anthony 0:11
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast a safe place to get real about sex. Whether you’re a man, woman, single, or couple, this is the show for you.

Céline Remy 0:20
We are your hosts, Kevin Anthony and Céline Remy. And we are here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and beyond.

Kevin Anthony 0:27
Alright, welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 189. And it’s titled, so you want to be monogamish. If you don’t know what that means, we will be explaining it to you. It’s been a long time since we’ve done a show that had to do with something other than kind of your standard monogamous relationship. And we did some early on, you know, about round open relating in different ways.

Kevin Anthony 0:56
And those shows did okay, but we do have to be realistic about the fact that the majority of people aren’t really into that. However, we have started to see since we did the show several years ago, that more and more clients are starting to experiment with being quote-unquote, monogamish, which we’ll explain, and are wanting more tools for how to do that properly.

Kevin Anthony 1:26
So we thought it was time to revisit this subject. And, yeah, and just kind of tell people, what it is, what it isn’t, how it might be beneficial to your relationship, how it could be detrimental to your relationship. And really, we’re going to give you a list of how to do it correctly without screwing everything up.

Céline Remy 1:51
And you know, there’s always this idea that the grass is greener somewhere else. And you know, you got to stop thinking that so wherever you go, there you are. So if you’ve got issues, you know that follow you because guess what, it’s all about the unresolved stuff.

Céline Remy 2:08
And just adding more people to the mix is not going to make those disappear. As a matter of fact, it magnifies everything. We’ll

Kevin Anthony 2:17
talk about that more when we get into the potential downsides. But yeah, just keep in mind that if you’ve got drama in your current relationship, the more people you add, you will exponentially increase the amount of drama. Anyway, before

Céline Remy 2:30
we dive into today’s content, let’s give a big shout-out to our sponsor’s power and mastery. So if you want to join the secret club of men who are great in bed, then check out power and mastery at power and mastery.com. It is the most complete sexual mastery training for men.

Céline Remy 2:46
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Céline Remy 3:05
There’s been research by one of the dating apps called Hinge. I don’t even really know which one that is. But half of the adults say that they want to explore new sexual desires with a partner. And around 80% say that it’s important to them that a partner is sexually open and adventurous. We had somebody on our show who was talking about some of the trends. She was the customer

Kevin Anthony 3:32
editor. Yes, yes, we had the Cosmo one.

Céline Remy 3:35
And she did say that with COVID them in their study, they really found that people were really starting to want some new things in their relationship and different things. So whatever being sexually open in an adventurous means to you, you know, it’s not the same for everyone. But if you are in the category of the monogamish, then it will make sense.

Kevin Anthony 3:58
Well, yeah, that was the point I wanted to make is that sexually opening, adventurous could be like, everything from hey, let’s do a different position. This time for the first time in 10 years.

Céline Remy 4:08
That’s why an all or sex toy. Yeah,

Kevin Anthony 4:11
or let’s incorporate a sexually or it could be like, let’s bring somebody else in. So there’s a wide range there. But 80% is a pretty large number. And you’re right when we talked to Jessica, I believe her name was from Cosmo.

Kevin Anthony 4:31
Yeah, one of the things that they found in their study was that so we’re talking about monogamish, which, you know, her data didn’t necessarily say people just after COVID wanted to go out and fuck everybody everywhere that starts with the data set.

Kevin Anthony 4:45
But the data did say that people were wanting to do different things to spice things up a bit more, I guess, you know, being stuck at home with the same person all the time made them go hmm, maybe we should do something different.

Céline Remy 4:59
Well, The term monogamish was popularized in 2011. So long time ago, it’s been around by the sex advice columnist Dan Savage. Basically, he says that he practices his own version of monogamous with his in his own marriage of 20 plus years.

Céline Remy 5:19
And he and his husband are monogamish since they are in a loving and exclusive marriage that still allows for occasional infidelity. It’s mostly monogamy, he says with a little squish around the edges. So that’s his definition of monogamish.

Kevin Anthony 5:34
Yeah, no. Okay, that’s, that’s fine. There’s nothing wrong with that definition. I’m not gonna argue with Dan, he’s quite the popular person in our industry. But I don’t really like the term for the term, he uses occasional infidelity because infidelity is a word that basically, I get how he’s using it.

Kevin Anthony 5:59
But it basically implies you’re doing this behind somebody’s back. Right. And so what we’re advocating for here is absolutely not that and of course, we will explain what we don’t even so much we’re advocating, but what we’re talking about here,

Céline Remy 6:16
you know, like, it’s important to understand that you can create any style of relating and relationship that you want. And just because you started a certain way doesn’t mean that you have to keep it throughout your entire life, things can move and shift at different times.

Céline Remy 6:34
And I really want to say that don’t let other people define for you what it means to have a relationship like we live in a day and age where anything goes. So it’s really time to give yourself permission to be more creative or open or do different things if that’s what you want. I also want to say that there is absolutely nothing wrong with monogamy. Monogamy is awesome as well when done right? Just like any style of relating. It’s who does it and how they do it.

Kevin Anthony 7:09
Yeah. So you mentioned at the beginning of the show, it’s important not to get stuck in that the grass is always greener on the other side, right, which is a tendency that happens when you’re talking about expanding outside of monogamy is like hey, well, there’s so many other good looking people you could be doing stuff with.

Kevin Anthony 7:29
But the data actually does show that monogamous people actually have more sex than single people and nonmonogamous people. In fact, we will be interviewing somebody coming up, I don’t know exactly, when, but it’s coming up in the next couple of weeks, who has some excellent data on this? Because I was just reading it in her book. So we’ll be covering more of that later.

Kevin Anthony 7:54
But the point simply is, is that you know, there’s a lot of great benefits to monogamy, people tend to have deeper relationships, longer-lasting relationships, more sex, right. So this is not about monogamy is an old outdated way of being that was only for your grandparents. And you know, we’re so much smarter and more evolved and advanced than they are.

Kevin Anthony 8:14
And we’ve got all this technology to help us and make it all right, yeah, so So lien said, the grass isn’t always greener on the other side. And this style isn’t any better than any other style, they all have potential benefits and potential downsides, which we will be covering in just a short little bit, we have a list of the possible benefits and the possible downsides.

Céline Remy 8:41
So why would you want to move out of monogamy because some people, you know, you can be perfectly happy in it? And some people are perfectly unhappy in monogamous relationships. So one would be that, and that’s I think, is probably the most common one is that one partner wants to explore another gender, where they like, I don’t know, maybe I am bisexual, I want to explore with same-sex, you know.

Céline Remy 9:10
if you are, in a heterosexual relationship. So that’s usually one of the drivers, I have to admit that often. It is the woman wanting to explore with other women. Again, it’s a generality, but it’s often the case,

Kevin Anthony 9:26
it’s the majority of what we have witnessed.

Céline Remy 9:29
Another reason that you would want to move out of monogamy is if one of the partners identifies as asexual or doesn’t want to give any more sexual attention to the relationship. And, you know, that’s an important one to talk about. Because I believe that it’s not fair to be in a marriage where you’re like, hey, we’ve got to be faithful to each other. And you can’t have sex with anybody else, but I’m not giving you any.

Kevin Anthony 9:57
Yeah, and that unfortunately happened. a lot. And again, you know, for talking about stats like, reference this book I’ve been reading because it’s fresh in my memory and but, you know, another thing that they’re really talking about there is how important sexuality is to the foundation of your relationship.

Kevin Anthony 10:18
And so, you know, they’ve done many studies on this. And they can, they can clearly see in the data that couples who have sex, at least somewhat regularly report a much higher quality of the relationship than those that don’t.

Céline Remy 10:34
But more sex is not always better.

Kevin Anthony 10:37
Yeah, well, so that was the next part of it, which is like, okay, basically what they determined, and she admits, I don’t want to go too much into this, because we’re totally going to do a whole show on this. But she admits that the way the study was conducted, may not have been, it may not have been telling the entire story.

Kevin Anthony 10:55
But what they did find is that couples that had sex at least once a week report a high level of satisfaction, much higher than those who were not having sex once a week, however, the couples who were having sex more than once a week didn’t report any higher satisfaction in their relationship. So it seemed like, you know, more wasn’t necessarily better.

Kevin Anthony 11:13
But that could potentially be how they structured the study, because of how they got people to have more sex than they would normally have. It was somewhat forced. So yeah, so you know, you’re right. But the point is, is that, you know, you could end up in a situation in a relationship, where for whatever reason, somebody has a health challenge, or, you know, sometimes the hormones shift in ways where people just aren’t interested anymore.

Kevin Anthony 11:42
Or, you know, there’s a whole bunch of reasons why somebody might be like, not really wanting sex anymore. At this point in my life. The problem comes in, when it’s only one person, one person like, well, I’m, I’m really unlike on a scale of one to 10, m is zero, and the other person’s like, I’m an 11, or even a 10 9876, you know, and you see, there’s a big disparity there.

Céline Remy 12:09
So basically, it’s either you want to explore something you haven’t done before, are with a new gender, you have a relationship with mismatched libido, you have a different appetite for sexual experiences, you know, some people, and we’ve known couples like this, where one of them liked a particular style of sexuality, and it was absolutely not their partner’s taste.

Céline Remy 12:35
And they’re like, Hey, why don’t you go have BDSM experiences with other people? Here are the limits and stuff and we’ll talk more about that. And we’ve me we do this, you know, so that’s kind of all the reasons why somebody would want to step out of the monogamous box. Now, we use the term monogamous, but I think it’s important that we define little bit some of the styles also because they are really define

Kevin Anthony 13:01
our terms.

Céline Remy 13:02
Yes, because there are a lot of options. You know, as always, right? There are so many gems on the shelf. And it’s simply for your relationship. There are so many things. So let’s talk about a few things like swinging involves partner swapping between two capitals that already exist. Usually, in the swinging community, people are not very interested in knowing each other, they just want to bang each other when don’t

Kevin Anthony 13:30
want to know your real name. Don’t want your email address, or your phone number, don’t expect to call tomorrow, just want

Céline Remy 13:38
access to what’s between your legs. Anyway, it works for some but understands that it is different. An open relationship is another style where typically it means that the partners date or have an ongoing consensual sexual relationship with other people. And oftentimes, open relating or relationship is very similar to polyamory, which is kind of a broad term that is close to a relationship.

Céline Remy 14:08
I think in polyamory usually, and again, there are many ways of doing Polly but people have Iver what they call a primary relationship like that main relationship, and then they have other relationships around and everything is done in the open. And the idea of that is to cultivate a relationship or multiple relationships over the span of a long time, like however long the relationship can last for

Kevin Anthony 14:32
Yeah, so those two terms open relationships and polyamory are basically used interchangeably. Yes, people’s people, pun intended, swap those terms, back and forth a lot. And so, you know, you might hear somebody say, one or the other. And, you know, you would have to ask for more clarification as to what exactly they were talking about. But the thing is, is under either of those terms, there’s a whole bunch of subcategories of how it’s done.

Céline Remy 15:02
We can go into detail about that too much. And by the way, I want to clarify that polygamy is not polyamory it is very different polygamy is a man having multiple wives. Yes, usually associated with a particular religion.

Kevin Anthony 15:18
So the only time that polygamy and polyamory get confused, is by people that don’t know what either one of those actually is.

Céline Remy 15:27
Let’s just define monogamous here because then monogamous, usually, the participant was almost given like a whole pass, meaning that under certain circumstances that have been clearly communicated, but between the parties, one or both partners can be free to sexually or emotionally step out.

Céline Remy 15:45
That’s the traditional definition, I’m going to say that my definition of monogamish is different in that it’s not about the whole past. No, my definition of monogamous is that as a couple, we are monogamous. But we have defined areas were we willing to open up,

Kevin Anthony 16:01
right, so Okay, how about a couple of examples of that? Right. So I agree with you, which is good because we’re married. But yeah, so So in, in my definition of monogamish, it simply means that we are monogamous primarily.

Kevin Anthony 16:25
But maybe if we happen to be at a party, it would be okay for somebody to give you a massage, or, you know, massage your breasts or somebody could maybe touch, you know, whatever those sort of pre-negotiated things are, but they’re in certain circumstances.

Kevin Anthony 16:41
And it’s all agreed upon ahead of time. But we’re still primarily, I mean, it could potentially involve sex with somebody, but generally, it’s played together kind of stuff, or at least, you’re all in the same general vicinity at the same time kind of thing. So, you know, people call it monogamish.

Kevin Anthony 17:03
Because it’s like, Well, really, we’re just a monogamous couple who occasionally might experiment a little bit outside of that. Yeah.

Céline Remy 17:11
So again, as you can see, it’s not so clear, cut the labels, the labels on the help to understand things, but you don’t have to bid by any of that you can create anything you want. It’s your own rules. It’s your life in a relationship.

Kevin Anthony 17:23
And so so it couldn’t be a hall pass. But you know, Hall Pass to me means like, Hey, I’m using my hall pass tonight. I’m going out. See ya. Bang, whoever I come in contact with.

Céline Remy 17:37
Yeah, that’s not my definition.

Kevin Anthony 17:39
No, I think it’s most people’s definition of monogamous. I mean, that that’s, that’s more bordering on swinging.

Céline Remy 17:47
Yeah, yeah. It’s interesting because I think that those who are not super comfortable with the communication piece, and like being all upfront, that’s what they will use. But I think people who are really good at communicating, it’s like, everything’s in the open.

Kevin Anthony 18:01
Yeah, well, we’re gonna talk about that, when it comes to how to do it properly, without screwing everything up.

Céline Remy 18:07
So let’s talk about a few of the benefits, why you would want to try any of the styles that we just talked about. And for the purpose of today’s episode, we’re mostly talking about monogamish. But one, it can bring some new energy to the relationship, you’re familiar with the concept of NRT of new relationship energy, when you start dating somebody, there’s this like, all of these hormones, chemicals that are flowing in your body.

Céline Remy 18:32
You feel so in love, and you forget to eat and sleep, and the world is just such a beautiful place. And, you know, you could just leave on fresh air and love. But as you are in your relationship for a longer period of time that disappears. But the fun part is when you have somebody new, you can feel that energy again. And what’s interesting is that often it leaks into your existing

Kevin Anthony 18:58
does always leak into your existing relationship. And that’s why people like to do it because they want to experience those chemicals that happen when you first meet somebody, even though they’ve been together for 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. And so when you bring somebody new in, it creates that, but you all get to share it. Yeah. So that’s one possible benefit.

Céline Remy 19:22
Another one is that it can reignite this sexual energy.

Kevin Anthony 19:26
So yeah, I put these two they sound like the same thing. But I put these two as two separate things for a very distinct reason. So yeah, there’s that sort of excitement about a new relationship. Oh, we’re gonna go on a date. You know, like, there’s, there’s that kind of stuff.

Kevin Anthony 19:43
But then there’s also, there’s also something that can happen in relationships, and people have been together for a long time where the sex gets kind of like, it’s kind of boring for lack of a better word. It’s routine. Yeah, routine is a great word. Where it’s just yeah, They’re doing it, they’re enjoying it, but it’s not like it used to be.

Kevin Anthony 20:06
And then all of a sudden, you bring somebody new in this way, and it can potentially, like, all of a sudden, you’re really excited about having all the time. Right. And it’s, and again, it’s, it’s not just with the new person and brings that into the existing relationship.

Kevin Anthony 20:21
And so you can suddenly like, yeah, you know, I was somewhat interested in sex, you know, but and then all of a sudden, you’re like, Yeah, I just want to fuck all the time. Son, right. So it’s a little bit different. There’s the excitement about somebody new and going out on a date and all that, but then there’s the like, really firing up the desire for wanting sex.

Céline Remy 20:42
And never good benefit is that it can be a way for one or the other partner to have their needs met. So like we were talking about earlier when you have different preferences or different libido. And so then you’re like, okay, one person is like, not gonna hold the other one back when that happens.

Kevin Anthony 21:02
Yeah, so you know, there are so so many scenarios, where somebody feels like, they’re not getting what they truly want, and the other person is not willing to give it to them, or maybe not capable, maybe they’re willing, but they’re not capable.

Céline Remy 21:19
You know, the other thing too, is like, don’t just add the first little hiccup, try to open up your relationship or an end to that, you know, it’s kind of like couples on the brink of like, divorcing or breaking up and go, I guess have a baby like it’s Cupid idea, right?

Kevin Anthony 21:36
Absolutely stupid idea. Let’s do something that’s going to push both of you to the limits of your capacity. Because you think maybe it’ll help the situation? No, no, if you want to have a kid, you need to have a rock-solid foundation of a relationship, because it’s going to push you to your limits. It’s the same exact thing here. With introducing somebody new to your relationship, you better have a rock-solid foundation before you even consider it. Yeah.

Céline Remy 22:04
And we’ll talk more about that. I’m going to go ahead and move on quickly here because there’s some I want to get spend more time with the how-tos because that’s really exciting. So let’s just talk about a few more benefits here is it can satisfy long term fantasies, which can be a really fun way because you get them out of just a fantasy realm into real life that helps you create a sense of adventure,

Kevin Anthony 22:30
but I don’t I don’t want to skip too quickly past we’ve got time. It’s okay. I don’t want to skip too quickly past that longtime fantasies thing, because there’s an important point to be made. All right, go for it. You haven’t. Well, how many times have we seen couples? Right? Where one cup one person in the couple has had these fantasies their whole life and they’ve never been like this threesome fantasy like this, just this is called the big pink elephant in the room.

Kevin Anthony 22:53
Every guy wants to have a threesome, right? Well, what about all these guys that never had a threesome, and then they get into a monogamous relationship. And they’re constantly thinking about this threesome, that can actually cause problems later on down the line in the relationship, especially if suddenly an opportunity for a threesome comes up, right? And he ends up cheating or whatever.

Kevin Anthony 23:13
So it’s a way to be able to get those things, you know, show your riot, wild oats, get it out of your system, whatever term you want to use, it’s a way to be able to experience those things without wrecking the relationship as a result of not ever having been able to express those desires.

Céline Remy 23:30
It can help you create a sense of adventure. I mean, that’s pretty obvious. But I think last but not least, it’s it should be the first benefit, in my opinion, is that it forces couples to learn more skills, because as we’ve mentioned earlier, you know, you need to be a communication ninja, you need to know how to set boundaries.

Céline Remy 23:49
And we’ll dive more in detail into how to do that. Without these skills. Without this solid foundation, the relationship is not going to survive it.

Kevin Anthony 23:58
There are so many times where couples thought oh yeah, we’re really good at communicating until this happens, and then it blows up. Or they’re like, Yeah, I know my partner so well, I know exactly what they want until all of a sudden they’re doing something that they’re Where did that come from right there. I know.

Kevin Anthony 24:17
We know exactly what our boundaries are until all of a sudden somebody’s like, well, I thought our boundaries were this well, I thought they were this right? Honestly. And this is one of the things you know, we tell people all the time. It doesn’t matter whether you’re in a monogamous relationship or any other version monogamish open poly swinging whatever it is.

Kevin Anthony 24:39
You should know these skills regardless of if you’re in a monogamous relationship, right where it’s like there are no buddies but the two of you and when there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Don’t think that you don’t need to learn these skills because we’re more monogamous, so it doesn’t matter.

Kevin Anthony 24:54
No, you need to learn these skills just as much as everybody else. However, if you are going to experiment with one of these other styles, you damn well better know these skills, because otherwise, it is going to be a disaster.

Céline Remy 25:09
Now, if you want to learn how how to apply all of these skills, make sure that you have that solid foundation, Kevin, and I can help you work with that we work with couples, and we really tailor our program. So you’ve probably heard us talk about our high sex PowerColor power couple program that we have. Basically what happens is there is that we work with couples over the period of 90 days for three months.

Céline Remy 25:34
And we do a combination of working in joint sessions and solo sessions, and we really zoom in on what’s going on. So we work with couples who haven’t had sex in a long time and want to bring that back. We want to work with couples who want to start to explore and open up and have new skills we want to work with couples who have like bedroom issues or mismatched libidos, I mean, we’ve seen it all, our goal is to create a highly tailored program for exactly where you are.

Céline Remy 26:01
And basically, we take you from this like stuck in a rut or average of things not working to like being really synched up having passion and love and deep intimacy.

Kevin Anthony 26:12
No matter where you are on that spectrum. There’s room for improvement. So you know, I mean, we’ve worked with famous people who like you would think they got all the money, all the opportunity in the world, and you would think that they’ve got it all figured out. And nope, nope, they learned a ton. So if you are interested

Céline Remy 26:34
in working with us go to kevinanthonycoaching.com/passion. And you can learn about our synergy program here for you. And we’d love to talk with you. Okay, talk about the downside,

Kevin Anthony 26:47
to talk about this subject to pretend like it’s all rainbows, unicorns, butterflies, and flowers, right? Because for a lot of people, it’s really not. So we have to talk about the downsides, number one, and this definitely should be number one on the list. I didn’t actually write these lists in any particular order.

Kevin Anthony 27:05
That’s why you know, the other one just came to me as I was towards the end of the list. And you’re right, it should have been up at the top. But this one belongs right where it is, which is it can create jealousy. Oh boy can it creates jealousy, lots of jealousy if you’re not careful.

Céline Remy 27:23
And what’s fascinating is a lot of people think they’re not jealous until they’re put into a situation and then he is totally fine to see my partner making out and then they start to see that partner going down on somebody or having sex with somebody else. And then something gets triggered and insecurity or something like that. Jealousy can take you just by surprise. Like, even if you think you’re not jealous like there can be the situation and it gets lit up like that.

Kevin Anthony 27:50
Yeah. And I want to make a point to that. There’s nothing wrong with jealousy. So one of the things that we have personally experienced and I know you can tell me if you’ve noticed it as much as I have. There’s a big demonizing of jealousy. And when it comes to the poly communities like Oh, my God, jealousy. No, no, you should do everything you can jealousy is bad.

Kevin Anthony 28:12
No, you gotta wipe out jealousy, you know, like the war against jealousy. You know? It’s kind of like that. And the reality is his jealousy is an absolutely normal reaction. Now, how do you deal with that? That’s where it gets sticky. Right? So like, do you go crazy and do something that you will regret later? Or do you handle it? It is actually there are some people that don’t experience jealousy like there are and we’ve known a few.

Kevin Anthony 28:39
They are very rare. Yes, very rare. So if you’re, if you’re experimenting in this in any way, and you’re feeling feelings of jealousy, and people around, you’re like, Well, you really need to work on that. And this is really a problem for you. And you’re really gonna need to get to the space where you don’t feel it. It is so rare, a person that doesn’t feel any jealousy at all like they exist, but they’re totally unicorns.

Céline Remy 29:05
Well, and the thing is, I think we need to reframe around it that when jealousy comes up, it’s a great opportunity to look at what needs of yours is not met, what are your insecurities and to learn to speak up because ultimately, once you feel secure, the jealousy disappears, the jealousy comes up because you’re threatened to lose something that you care about.

Céline Remy 29:30
And so once you identify the fret of what’s going on and what you need, then usually then you can create something around that. Alright, another downside is that it can make a relationship more unstable.

Kevin Anthony 29:44
Yeah, this is kind of like we were talking about before with the people who are having a tough time in their relationship and decide they’re gonna have a kid because somehow that’ll make everything better. No, no, this, this is potentially going to challenge you. So if you’re not doing it correctly, the downside is it could potentially make things worse. That’s what we just have to say, as straightforward as it is, it can make things worse if you’re not careful.

Céline Remy 30:07
Another thing that people don’t think about is that it can bring up all patterns and traumas. So as you bring more people in, everything gets magnified the love, but also this stuff, the yucky things that you don’t want to look at. And if you haven’t done the work, and even if you’ve done the work, I mean, we still have stuff. It’s well, thank you, man.

Kevin Anthony 30:26
Yeah, here’s, here’s the thing. Here’s what I have personally witnessed happen more times than I can count. Somebody thinks that they’ve done the work. And I’m not saying that they haven’t, they’ve probably done tons of work. And they think they’ve got it all figured out. And then suddenly, they end up in an open relationship. And Daddy wound that they didn’t even know they had got triggered.

Kevin Anthony 30:48
That never came up before. Because they were never in a situation where they felt like they were being abandoned by their father. But all of a sudden, the man is off making out with somebody else, and she feels like her father has just abandoned her right now, just one scenario can go the other way too.

Kevin Anthony 31:02
But the idea is, is that there can be a lot of stuff under the surface that you don’t even know exists until something big triggers it and then you’re like, oh,

Céline Remy 31:13
let’s be real that with different styles of relationship like this, it can also bring more drama than it is really worth. Like, you might end up spending more time processing than fucking,

Kevin Anthony 31:26
there’s a term in the poly community called poly agony. With it, it’s a term used to describe the agony that you go through. And here’s the interesting thing is, you know, I have actually seen people glorify the term poly agony, where they literally talk about like, you know, this is your badge of courage. You know, this is your Red Badge of Courage.

Kevin Anthony 31:50
I don’t know if you’ve ever read that book before. It’s actually a good book that has nothing to do with your relationships. But yeah, they kind of wear it as a badge of honor or courage that they’ve gone through all this hard, difficult stuff. And like, I’ve seen people put themselves through so much pain under the guise of, but I’m learning. But I’m learning, maybe you’re learning.

Kevin Anthony 32:16
But are you also traumatizing yourself? Are you actually creating deep psychological patterns of trauma that you’re going to spend the next how many years trying to untangle? Like, is that worth it? Obviously, in that scenario, it’s not. And so you really need to take a good hard look at yourself and your relationship and what you’re doing and decide if there’s if there’s a significant amount of drama there.

Kevin Anthony 32:43
Is this really worth it? Is this really helping you? Are you really getting the benefit you think you’re getting from it? Or are you literally just creating more trauma patterns?

Céline Remy 32:53
Alright, we’ve got a couple more downsides here before we get into the how-tos. But one of the downsides is that it can highlight your lack of skills, it can show you it’s a beautiful mirror. And it can be pretty brutal,

Kevin Anthony 33:05
you thought you were a good communicator until you were incapable of communicating your feelings of jealousy.

Céline Remy 33:13
And then last but not least, it can lead to the end of the relationship. And that’s that, I mean that that’s a fact. And you got to be aware of that. Anytime you’re going to open up your relationship. Some people that’s what they choose, never do open up because like, well, what if she finds somebody better, or he finds somebody better?

Céline Remy 33:33
And ultimately, you guess you weren’t meant to be with each other. But sometimes it’s the amount of pain, drama, suffering, and all this that creates the end, and we’ve added the relationship would have worked?

Kevin Anthony 33:44
Yeah. And it’s not just about they found somebody better. It’s just that you triggered traumas, you cause more drama, you just basically eff everything up. Yeah, right.

Céline Remy 33:57
And that’s only working if you’re in a, in a movie, don’t do that in real life, really, because even in movies, it’s painful to watch.

Kevin Anthony 34:06
You know, when you do what we do for a living, you know, and you’ve personally experienced, you know, a lot of the stuff that we’re talking about over numerous years is not just one or two experiences. You watch that stuff and move it you already know exactly where it’s going. And you’re just like, show, Do I really have to sit through the next 45 minutes to an hour of this show?

Céline Remy 34:32
Alright, let’s get to our how-tos because I’m sure if now you have a better idea of if you’ve been considering it, and you’re like this is helping you’re making up your mind that we’re going to give you some good how to do it, how to open up your relationship. Starting to be maybe monogamish is a good first step in a way that will not destroy the relationship we currently have.

Céline Remy 34:56
Rule number one, and it’s not on the list and I’m going to say I’m thinking about it. Please be sober. Please be sober with any of the encounters that you are having. Because if you are not so burned, I don’t care how legal things are, wherever you live, you know, here’s the thing, you are not clear about your boundaries, you are not always able to voice, it gets mucky, and you don’t really always you might agree to things you would not have done if you weren’t, like altered.

Kevin Anthony 35:30
So I know where that one’s coming from because you are working with some clients currently who are struggling with that challenge. And, you know, especially I would just add to what you’re saying and say, especially in the beginning, yeah, later on, once you’ve you’ve more experienced and you’ve got the boundaries clear, and the communication clear and all that, okay, that’s fine.

Kevin Anthony 35:50
But in the beginning, man, you are really playing Russian roulette by not having your full wits about you, and you’re not making good clear decisions, and you’re not communicating as well as you think you are communicating at the moment.

Céline Remy 36:05
Well, and I love that you’re bringing that point because it’s let’s say you’ve been dating somebody for a long time, like you’re having this relationship that all of you decide here, we’re all going to get high and do this together with this intention.

Céline Remy 36:16
That’s very, very different than the only way I can open up or have like making out with other people is if I have some drinks or substance substances, because otherwise, I’m just like, too shy, you’re afraid or I don’t know what to ask for.

Céline Remy 36:34
And that’s not good. You got to learn the skills. And honestly, don’t force yourself to go faster than you are ready for really don’t because it takes more time to like fat chop this stuff and, and clear up all the stuff that happened than it is if you went slower.

Kevin Anthony 36:50
Yeah. We’ll talk more about that later on down the list too. All right, that was one a so one, B, is to start by clearly communicating what it is you both want to get from this experiment. You have to know your why. Why are you doing this? And you better have a good reason for it. Not just I don’t know, this board is Friday night. Figured Fuck it.

Céline Remy 37:17
I’m doing this to make him happy, or happy. Yeah, those are bad, bad reasons.

Kevin Anthony 37:23
But so you and you both have to talk about it because your reasons might not be the same. So it’s really important to say, here’s my reason, here’s why I think that this would be a good idea. And then the other person says, well, here’s why I think and then you can get a chance to talk about like, you know, do I agree with your reasons?

Kevin Anthony 37:38
Do you agree with my reason, right? Or are we like, oh, no, that’s not it? Because you might say, Well, my reasons for this. And I’m like, Oh, that’s not a good reason.

Céline Remy 37:49
I can give you that, or we can get it right, right, this need to be met in a different way. Also, what happens is you start to communicate, and I think communication is so so essential. You can’t skip over this. And you cannot, in my opinion, over-communicate. It’s an essential skill when you are opening a relationship.

Céline Remy 38:12
Yes. Alright. Next, you need to clearly state and agree on your desired boundaries and agreements and write them down. And this is something that you do prior to anything happening. And it’s not something yet you think afterward, it’s not something that you think really during Oh, wait, I don’t want this dig in that mouth. No, we’ve

Kevin Anthony 38:33
seen this happen. We’ve seen the new requirements or agreements or boundaries pop up in the middle of things. Oh,

Céline Remy 38:40
hold on. Like, let me just call my wife and make sure she’s okay with that while we’re in the middle. And I’m going oh, yeah, did I mention to you I have herpes.

Kevin Anthony 38:52
This is not the way that you go about it. So you both much like you need to sit down and discuss what you both want from this experiment. He also needs to really clearly define like, here’s what I’m okay with.

Kevin Anthony 39:07
You can do this, this and this, but not this, this and this. That’s important. Don’t just say you can do this, this, and this. Or don’t just say you can’t do this, this, or this. clearly specified. Here’s what I’m okay with you doing here’s what I am not okay with you doing.

Céline Remy 39:22
And that forces you to speak up for things and you have to express scenarios, you have to think about all the different combinations, like the girl on girls, boy on boy kissing, and going down penetration which holds all of these details.

Kevin Anthony 39:37
Yeah, this is a funny one too, because a lot of times when guys get into this, they never think about the fact that there might be another guy involved. And they only think about boundaries and agreements in terms of well, it’s going to be two women in me. Of course, that’s something you need to discuss also.

Kevin Anthony 39:57
The last point about this, and I knew we were talking about this before a few times on the show, you really need to write the agreements down. Because what you don’t want, later on, is there to be some sort of, well, we had this agreement. No, we didn’t we didn’t talk about Yeah,  I know we did. Well, I’m not so sure about that. I don’t remember talking about that.

Céline Remy 40:19
Page free of our 45 pages contract clause number 17. Look, it is right there.

Kevin Anthony 40:25
Okay, so we did have some friends who literally had like a 15-page long agreement, which we both were like, that’s just way too fucking complicated. You know, it’s, it’s almost like, you know, our system of law in the western world is intentionally overly complicated because they don’t actually want you to understand it.

Kevin Anthony 40:47
And they want to be able to “got you “at any moment, they so choose, right, and they want you to be able to, to screw up because you thought you were doing it, right. So having too many agreements, and too long and too complicated of a set of agreements can actually be a problem, because it’s too hard to follow. At that point, it’s too easy to make mistakes, and then create more jealousy, and more bad feelings and all that,

Céline Remy 41:13
keep it simple, keep it clear, it can size and you can always change things over time. But it is important to have it in writing. Let’s talk about point number three here, because I think this is so essential, you need to have what we call a safe word or code or something between you and your partner. See, for a lot of women, we need that safety. But in a place without safety, we not going to feel comfortable opening up sexually.

Céline Remy 41:42
And when you are interacting with multiple people, especially if you are doing it with people you don’t yet know very well, that gets magnified, you need that element of safety. And knowing that whatever you’re doing is to enhance your relationship and not take away, right, that’s kind of like part of the reason why you would want to open up is to make things better with your partner.

Céline Remy 42:06
And knowing that if something is not feeling good, that you’ve got each other, and you don’t have to like explain it in front of everybody. But if something if you need to get out if that’s too much, or you need a pause, like have a sign have a safe word, something that people know, you know, those pretzels, pretzels are making no

Kevin Anthony 42:24
first principles or making me thirsty.

Céline Remy 42:28
Whatever that is, having a safe word will allow you to call off something pull out of the situation, get your head back into place, and then decide, you know, like, do we want to continue? Do we want to go away or something? Yeah, so

Kevin Anthony 42:44
and that is very, it’s very much part of the next one on the list. So have a safe word, right so or signal or something where you both are on the same page. And then the next one is you got to be 100% on the same team. So if one person needs to call a halt, you both have to agree.

Kevin Anthony 43:00
So what that means is if for any reason, and it doesn’t matter what the reason is, for any reason, one person gives the signal pulling on the earlobe, pretzels or making me thirsty, whatever it is, both people go, it’s like a dog to a dog whistle, huh? What? Okay, got it, boom, we stop. Yes, you have to be 100% on the same page, if you’re not, your partner’s not going to trust you.

Céline Remy 43:30
And you don’t want to go there. Number five, check in frequently to see how each other is doing especially during and, you know, like, again, the concept that it’s adding to the relationship, make sure that everybody is really having a good time. Is this still pleasant for you?

Céline Remy 43:47
And, and like also in between, like the time that you are intimate with other people or doing different things, but like, Hey, are you still excited about this potential date? Or like, tell me about this? Is there something else you want to do? Chicken Chicken Chicken

Kevin Anthony 44:03
with X number of dates? Is this still working for you? You know, do you want to keep experimenting? Do you not right? You got to check if you don’t assume that what you agreed to, you know, a month ago, two months ago, six months ago last week is still relevant today.

Céline Remy 44:20
And I like that you bring this up Kevin because one of the things that we had in a previous relationship I was in that was open. We literally checked in with each other prior to going to any parties or any whatever that was to be like, Okay, are you still fine with our agreements?

Céline Remy 44:40
Do we need to change anything? Or like are we good to go because again, you know, maybe it could be a day or somebody was like, you know, we haven’t made love this week and I’m not feeling really connected to you and sexually hard to see you go play with somebody else or to have you play like can we just stay together tonight if we go to a party, you know, and not play with other people see

Céline Remy 45:00
And that helps because sure the agreement is you can fuck anybody else you want. But if one of you is feeling like, hey, my cup is not full, I haven’t had enough of you, like, just pick up and that that makes the evening so much more beautiful because then you can just go there play together, make sure everybody’s good and

Kevin Anthony 45:15
always be another party, another application was more, don’t worry about it.

Céline Remy 45:20
And that kind of means like that next one we had here, which is to course-correct as frequently as necessary, right? Because again, agreements can change, people change, even if it’s written, like change it, it keeps it alive, it’s a relationship. So it’s not something that’s gonna be set in stone.

Kevin Anthony 45:37
Absolutely. The next one on the list is to go slow to start, you can always add experiences, but you can’t take them away once you’ve had them. So all of a sudden, you’re like, Ah, I really wish you hadn’t had anal sex with that random stranger, you know, too late. It’s done. Right? stretched.

Kevin Anthony 46:00
You can’t take that back, right. So start slow. You can always add experiences, you can’t take. It’s like cooking, right? Like, you add a little bit of spice. And then you taste it and you go, yeah, maybe I need a little bit more. But if you just dumped the whole thing, and now you’ve ruined the meal, and you can’t take it out, you can’t get it back out. But you just can’t.

Céline Remy 46:19
Even if you try to sweeten it, you’re going to taste it less, but your body will still sweat a lot because all the spices are still there. And last but not least, are we coming back to communication. keep communicating and communicating and communicating and communicating. Yes. Have we said enough communication? Here’s the thing, I want to really mention something too because that’s something I was coaching a client for.

Céline Remy 46:46
Communication happens before, during, and after? Before when like you have a clear agreement with your partner before you start interacting with another person. Like, all of you have a lot of chitchat like what do you want from this experience? What would be like the mildest you want to have experienced what’s like your wildest dream for two for this evenings, you know, and be like, speak those things out.

Céline Remy 47:11
They don’t need to happen, but it’s a good practice. And then doing keep checking in everybody feeling good, this feels good. Like, and it doesn’t have to be verbal, it could just be moaning, it could be like different things like that. I love to do afterward, like kind of debriefing and check-in like, hey, what was your highlight?

Céline Remy 47:28
Is this something you would want to do differently? And we do this just the two of us after lovemaking or after something like not every time but sometimes it’s like, Hey, how was that for you? Is there something different? And you can take the same concept with multiple people. And so the communication happens, not that it happens before, during after and it’s something you keep doing ongoingly?

Kevin Anthony 47:50
Yeah, those were some good practices that really got drilled in, in the poly community, I have to give them credit for that they were really good about checking in before, during, and after, that was the thing that they really very strongly about, you know, some people will say that you know, like, oh, we all ended up at their place. And it was just in the moment.

Kevin Anthony 48:13
And we couldn’t stop having that discussion, because it was going to kill the mood and just the net. And right, like, don’t get caught in that, oh, well, if we try to have this discussion, it’s gonna ruin the mood. If the mood is real, and people still really want to do this, they’ll still want to do it 10 minutes later, after you’ve all and they’ll probably want to do it more, because all of the women at least and probably the men, too, will now be feeling safe.

Céline Remy 48:38
Yeah. And wouldn’t you want to know who’s open for what’s you know, and he’s like, and then you won’t take it personally, if somebody is like, Hey, I’m not having penetration sex tonight, because I’m on my periods, then you won’t be thinking that there’s something wrong with you or something like that.

Kevin Anthony 48:52
I won’t take it personally, you won’t be worried about being accused of me to something or other, you know, like, you’ll know, like, you will know exactly what everybody’s up for. And there are no guessing games because you can’t guess here because if you guess wrong, it’s basically Russian Roulette, right?

Céline Remy 49:09
So ultimately, you want to keep educating yourself. Surround yourself with people who are living this lifestyle who have done it who are doing it, because you need to have really good role models, of course, listening to our show, but there are a few books that are really good for people who are exploring things. So there’s the ethical slots, a guide to infinite sexual possibility by Dosi Easton and Janet Hardy, and there’s also opening up a guide to creating and sustaining relationships by Tristan Taormino. yes, I’m mixing different people.

Céline Remy 49:44
These two books are kind of classics. I know we’ve mentioned them in previous episodes, but they’re really good books for people who are starting up there are plenty of other people who live this and who have written good books too that we have not to like mentioned, but what’s important there is to ask to educate yourself to listen to how are people doing it?

Céline Remy 50:03
What is working, what is not working from them. And guess what you’re going to screw it up. You’re going to when you do that, and you’re going to learn from your mistakes, but try to make it as easy for you to succeed as possible. And here’s

Kevin Anthony 50:15
the thing, if you follow the formula that we just gave you, if you make mistakes, they will be small mistakes and they will be recoverable. Yes, if you don’t follow what we just gave you, you will make bigger mistakes and you may or may not be able to recover from them.

Kevin Anthony 50:32
All right, well, there you go. If you were considering experimenting outside of your monogamous relationship, you now know, the good, the bad, the ugly and you have the formula for doing it. So good luck and if you need help, make sure you reach out and contact us. We can help you. Alright, everybody, that’s all the time we have for this episode. And we will see you next week.

Kevin Anthony 51:00
We hope you liked this episode of the Love Lab podcast. If you enjoy this show, subscribe. Leave us a review and share it with your friends.

Céline Remy 51:07
And for more free exclusive content. Join us in the passion vault at kevinanthonycoaching.com/vault.

Kevin Anthony 51:21
Thanks for listening. And remember,

Céline Remy 51:23
you’re amazing