Your Apology Sucks And How To Fix It

Kevin Anthony 0:05
Welcome to the Love Lab podcast, a safe and fun place to get real and learn about sex, whether you’re a man or woman, single or couple, this is the show for you. I am your host, Kevin Anthony, and I am here to guide you to go from good to amazing in the bedroom and your relationships.

All right. Welcome back to the Love Lab podcast. This is episode 330 and it is titled, your apology sucks and how to fix it. I think this is going to be a great conversation, but also a little bit of a fun one too. Obviously, with the title, your apology sucks. That’s that’s gonna raise some eyebrows, right? So we’re gonna really be talking in this episode about sort of the art of apologizing. So I have a whole bunch of questions. I have a guest with me today. He’s gonna help me unpack this. He actually wrote a book about it. And we’re really going to be talking about things like, you know, why is apologizing important? How would you make a good apology? You know, what are some of the mistakes that people make? What is the right time to apologize? How do you start a conversation about all of these things?

Because so many people think they do a good job of apologizing and really, really don’t. And it’s really interesting, because you see this a lot as a coach, when you’re working with a couple and you watch one of them apologize to the other one, it’s like half apology and half like criticism, dig. You know, here’s what you actually did wrong, which obviously negates, you know, the apology that came before it, or even after it, really so we’re really going to unpack that because this is really an essential skill in relationships. Conflicts happen. Everybody makes mistakes, everybody screws up, right?

And when that happens, we need to take ownership of it, and we need to apologize for it however. We want to do it in a way that actually creates a resolution and makes things better, rather than creating more problems later on down the road. So that’s what we’re going to unpack today in this episode. I’m actually really excited to have this conversation, because I’ve never had anyone on the show talk specifically about apologies and like, creating frameworks to make this easier. So I think this could be really valuable for the people listening, and I’m really curious to hear what some of these tools might be. So looking forward to that.

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Okay, my guest today is Dr Jon Dabach, and he is a marriage counselor and relationship coach for over 13 years, helping over 3000 relationships along the way. He’s got over 400,000 followers on his social media profiles and plans on helping people with their relationships until the day he dies. Welcome to the show, John.

Dr. Jon Dabach 3:47
Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Kevin Anthony 3:50
You know, I realized when I was reading your bio that I did not ask you the proper way to pronounce your name. So did I get that right? Or was I close?

Dr. Jon Dabach 3:59
You were no, you I, you know, honestly, if I wasn’t listening so intensely, I would have just said, yeah, it’s Dabach, although it depends on who you ask, that’s the way we say it, Dabach.

Kevin Anthony 4:00
I hate mispronouncing guests’ names, and I realize I’m like, Oh no, I didn’t ask him beforehand.

Dr. Jon Dabach 4:18
I don’t think in my entire life anyone’s got it right the first time. So don’t worry.

Kevin Anthony 4:24
All right, so obviously, we’re gonna be talking about apologizing today. And you know, I’m guessing you’ve seen bad apologizing a lot because there has to be a reason why you chose to write a whole book on this. I’m curious, could you talk a little bit about, you know, how often you find people getting it wrong? Like, how big of a problem is this? Is this something that’s just a few couples, most couples, or does everybody really screw this up?

Dr. Jon Dabach 4:56
I think if you find yourself talking to a therapist or a coach. Gosh, chances are either you or your partner or both have not apologized in a way that has felt fulfilling enough to actually not see a therapist or a coach with very, very few exceptions. So it’s, it’s something that everybody’s very, very bad at naturally, because we’re not taught how to apologize correctly. Really. Like, nobody really sits down and says, This is how you apologize. You know, you hear kids say, or parents say to their kids, like, No, you have to mean it. And it’s like, What the hell does that mean? You know, when you’re five years old, like, what does mean and mean?

Does that mean I put on sad eyes, you know, like, so there’s a, there’s, there’s this expression of remorse that’s kind of beat into you, but that’s really only a very small portion of what’s needed in an intimate relationship. Or, you know, and when I say intimate, it could be best friends. It could be employee to employer. In my world and in yours. It’s, it’s about a husband and wife or to or to, or two people who are together and there’s more to it than that. So, so it’s, it’s not surprising, but most, most people, the vast, vast majority of people, really do suck at apologizing.

Kevin Anthony 6:20
Yeah, I will say that has been my experience. Also, just in the work that I do, coaching people, I see it’s a skill that is lacking in most everybody, but even in my own life, if I’m honest, and I look back like, I can look back at past relationships I’ve had and see like, where I was just really bad at it, right? Yeah, and yeah, you kind of answered this already, but I kind of want to ask it again. Maybe we can get a little deeper into Sure. And that is, why are so many people bad at okay? So we weren’t taught, right? Why weren’t we taught? Or if we were taught anything at all, why weren’t we taught the right thing?

Dr. Jon Dabach 6:58
Well, I think that the vast majority of people aren’t taught how to apologize well, because their parents didn’t know how to apologize well, and really what the point of an apology is, and so they just know if someone does something, I mean, it’s kind of on a psychological level, if someone doesn’t express remorse, there’s a kind of fear that We have as parents that the person might be a sociopath or a psychopath. It’s like, please just express some kind of remorse. And it’s like, so as soon as you see your child expressing remorse, whether it’s to another child you have, or to or to you, or to whoever you’re like, okay, thank God. My, my kid’s normal, right? He has the ability, or she has the ability, to actually be remorseful, and that’s where it ends.

But that, you know, apologizing really isn’t just about proving that you’re not a sociopath. It’s about rebuilding the relationship and processing resentment. So the first reason is because people just don’t know how to do it themselves. So if your teacher doesn’t know how to do something, the student has no chance. And then the second reason is apologizing requires you to be able to be vulnerable, and that’s hard for a lot of people. It’s hard for parents. It’s hard for people in a romantic relationship, depending on your attachment style in your own history, it could feel like you’re completely exposed when you apologize because as soon as you admit that you’re part of the problem, there’s a fear that the person will leave you. So there’s a lot of moving pieces.

Kevin Anthony 8:33
Yeah, for sure. And I know I find it so interesting that relationships are such a huge part of our life, like most people, then there are some exceptions, but most people want to have and do have an intimate relationship in their life. And yet all of the core skills that it takes to do this well are never taught. They don’t teach us any of this stuff in school. Now, of course, maybe if you went into the field of psychology, you know, in college, you may have learned some of this stuff, but if you didn’t, they didn’t teach you any of these things. And sometimes it just blows my mind that such core skills like how to be in a relationship, are just simply not taught at all.

Dr. Jon Dabach 9:23
It’s really sad. I think, you know, psychology in general, is a new field relative to things, something like mathematics especially. And then when you think of psychology from like, a Freudian or Jungian standpoint, you know, kind of the stereotypical thing you’ll see in the movies. It’s about becoming okay with yourself. So the relational aspect is even newer. And whenever things are new, you know, it takes a while for it to kind of permeate society. And I also think that our gender roles and the way. Look at intimate relationships. I’m, you know, I think we’re about the same age. I’m in my early 40s, and you know it, I saw a shift even in my own lifetime, to the way people acted in romantic relationships, what the expectations are, what gender roles were. So relationships are still very fluid in terms of, like, what is healthy, what isn’t?

We always think that we know the best now, because it’s the most up-to-date information, but there were people who were able to stay married a lot longer, a lot more consistently back then. So who knows, maybe there was something to more specific roles, but, but you’re right. I mean, it’s not something that’s talked about much at all, and I think it’s a luxurious thing. I always talk about, like, think about a third-world country, the last thing on their mind for most of them is how to have a great relationship. They’re just concerned with survival, right? A lot of them are just, where do I get my food from? How do I make sure I’m safe? Is there a civil war going on? And so you don’t have to worry about how sensitive somebody was when they commented about your shoes, you know. So, so that’s also part of the reason it’s new. It’s just these are kind of first-world new problems where, you know, you can get anything from the store in two days with Amazon. So now let’s turn inward towards our relational lives because that’s the only thing left.

Kevin Anthony 11:20
Yeah, that’s a really good point that you bring up. I mean, obviously, if you’re stuck in survival mode, you don’t really have time to worry about or think about or focus on these things. And, you know, it’s kind of sad, right? Because all of the truly great things that humans have discovered, accomplished, and created, come from having that excess, you know, time and capacity and brain power to solve and create, right? Yeah. So, yeah, it’s a really interesting point. And not, not something I’d really thought of beforehand, is that for the overwhelming majority of people on the planet, this is not something they really have the capacity to do.

Dr. Jon Dabach 11:59
But you see that also just in therapy in general. Sorry to interject, but there are many studies you read on anything in psychology that will take into account demographic variations in their approach to therapy. So someone from a minority or a foreign family, so kind of like a, you know, new to America will always be more resistant to therapy, just across the board, as a generalization, because they were concerned with coming here, they were concerned with actually getting their footing so they didn’t have time to worry about anxiety and depression unless it was incredibly severe, or we would call it acute.

Kevin Anthony 12:40
Yeah, and you know, that’s kind of sad. This is why I really wish we as a society could get together and try to raise the overall standard of living for people so that they could get out of survival mode and then start to focus on the things that really advance our lives and our consciousness. Because that’s a lot of this is what we’re talking about is really advancing our consciousness, right, right? So that’s a whole other discussion for another day.

Dr. Jon Dabach 13:07
For sure, I’ll go off on tangents if you don’t rain me, it’s all good.

Kevin Anthony 13:13
Let’s go back to something you talked about a little earlier, which was the importance of apologizing. So you mentioned a couple of reasons, and I’m wondering if there are more. Let’s talk about why is it so important to get good at making real apologies.

Dr. Jon Dabach 13:30
So I look at relationships as or the quality of relationships really being a result of two core skills, building closeness and resolving conflict. Now, building closeness, there are lots of ways to do that in your relationship, but apologies are a kind of pillar of resolving conflict. So when I think of conflict, I think of it as the before, during, and after. You know, if you know you’re going to talk about a touchy subject, there’s a way to start that conversation with grace and eloquence. If you’re in the middle of a conflict, there are intervention techniques on how to stop the fight, but most of us miss those two, and what we end up with are these battle scars in our relationship because this person said this once, or she called me fat, or she said she wasn’t pleased in bed, or he said that he always wanted someone was a little more this way.

And those wounds are things we carry with us in the relationship, kind of forever, and the only way to reframe those scars and let them heal is through apologizing. You know, if someone says something that’s hurtful or does something that’s hurtful, you can undo it only so much with your actions. You have to at the end of the day, if you really want to heal, tell someone what’s going on inside your head and kind of let them in. Nobody’s a mind reader, at least nobody I’ve. Ever met, and not a true one, that who can read all your thoughts? And so if you said something in anger, or if you said something but you’ve had a change of heart, or you’ve done something, but there’s not just remorse, but you know, a real awakening that you can’t do that behavior anymore, the apology is the only way to let the person know, the only way to let the person know that you’ve made a change, you know, on an intellectual level, with any kind of eloquence. And so if you don’t do that, that battle wound of being in the relationship will never heal.

Kevin Anthony 15:38
Yeah, and this is a really important point to make. This is something that I think a lot of people don’t get, because they have this idea that, you know, okay, you fight whatever, and then the fights over, and it’s over, right? But it’s not necessarily over, and even though they may just be words, right, words can be like daggers, right? And they can hurt and they can leave scars, and over time, all those little things build up, right? And so the better job we can do with the apologizing, the more we can help heal those so we’re not carrying them on throughout the relationship, so they’re not coming back over and over again, right? I’m sure you’ve seen this too, right, where one person in the couple brings something up from 10 years ago, right? Yeah, for sure. Why would you bring something up from 10 years ago? Because you haven’t healed it yet, right? It’s still an issue.

Dr. Jon Dabach 16:33
I’m curious. It’s always fun to compare notes when you’re working with your own clients. Do you see people resisting apology? Do you feel like they try to just avoid it altogether? How do you handle that when you’re working with people?

Kevin Anthony 16:48
I see people resist apology, but it’s not so much that they’re like, I just refuse to apologize because I’m right. Like, I don’t see that as much with the clients I’m working with. It’s more like resisting a good apology. In other words, if you tell them they should apologize, most of the time, they’re like, yeah, I should probably apologize. But they fight the apology when they’re trying to give the apology right now. And so it’s like, I know I should apologize and I’m trying to do it, but they just, it usually ends up being a mess that doesn’t really help. I don’t often see it make things worse, but I often don’t see it help.

Dr. Jon Dabach 17:29
Yeah. It’s like, there you have this kind of ball of wax with, like, yarn, and there they start untangling it, and then somewhere along the lines, they start re-spooling it and making it a polygon. You’re like, No, you’re like, What are you doing? Like, you were so close.

Kevin Anthony 17:45
Exactly!

Dr. Jon Dabach 17:47
Well, yeah, it’s hard to watch.

Kevin Anthony 17:49
And that’s something I definitely want to talk about in a moment. I’m not sure I heard that we’re 100% done with the importance thing. So I want to, yeah, sure, sure. I want to come back. But I do want to talk at some point about obviously, like, how do you do a proper apology? Right? Because when I say, I see them apologize, but it’s not helping. There are reasons for that, right? There are reasons why this apology is completely not landing, right? Yeah, for sure. Definitely want to get into that. But okay, so the first point you made about the importance of apologizing was that you know, these create scars, and the best way to heal them is through doing, you know, a proper, you know, heartfelt, like an apology, where you actually mean it and you show some remorse, and, you know, you show that you’re willing To change or do better, right?

Dr. Jon Dabach 18:41
Yeah, it’s, I think it’s probably one of the only ways you could, you can, you know, make someone a nice dinner, but if you shouted at them, how much is that really going to undo the shouting? You know? I mean, some people have grown in their relationship. And I wrote the book with my wife, and she’s, you know, she’s not the best at apologizing, so it was kind of an interesting exercise. And she’ll, she readily admits it, you know, she said it’s, it’s been, it’s harder for her, whereas I was kind of born groveling.

So, so, so it’s a little bit different, but, but, you know, sometimes people can grow into these relationships where they understand, well, if my wife puts her head on my shoulder, that’s her way of apologizing. But that takes a pretty generous person. That takes someone who’s really done a lot of inner work and says, Hey, my partner or my best friend or my parent just will not learn how to apologize, and so I have to take this action, or this little, you know, kiss on the cheek, or whatever it is that they’re offering as their apology. But you know that’s, that’s few and far between people for people to be like that generous.

Kevin Anthony 19:56
I have to say. So prior to my wife, my girlfriend, would absolutely never apologize for anything like ever, even when it was, like, blatantly obvious that she really messed up, yeah, and how I would know that she would recognize it is, she would just go quiet. She would stop, you know, complaining or whatever was happening, she would just go quiet and then, like, pretend like it never happened. Now I understood that that was her recognition that she had messed up. But I have to tell you, even though I understood it, it always graded on me, always that she would never actually say the words. So even if you recognize that when she puts her head on there, on your shoulder, or she goes quiet, or she stops complaining, or whatever it is, that that is a form of recognition and apology, maybe, maybe it’s just me, but……..

Dr. Jon Dabach 20:55
No, that’s most people that like you want to hear it.

Kevin Anthony 20:57
That’s all I needed to hear were those two words. No explanation. Even she could just say I’m sorry and go quiet, that would have been enough.

Dr. Jon Dabach 21:06
I have a bit of sarcasm in my personality, and like I got so tired earlier on, my wife’s much better now, but, earlier on in the relationship, when she wouldn’t apologize and go quiet, much like your ex-girlfriend did when she got super close and we would hug. I would just give her the words in like, a high-pitched voice. I’d be like, I’m so sorry, John for all the bad things I did. Oh, don’t worry about it, honey. Okay, I’m glad you forgive me. And she would laugh, but she wouldn’t deny it. And so that, like, I got a little closer, but because at least the words were out in the air, and she could say, that’s not how I felt, you know, but she never did. So, you know, maybe that’ll help some people if you have a personality that could pull that off,, but that’s kind of like a weird, random, tangential thought that I had about, you know, how you can kind of get there, but you’re right. You want to hear it at the end of the day.

Kevin Anthony 21:57
And I think that’s kind of the important point for people to take away when we’re talking about you know why this is important is it’s important because, in order to really properly heal, people just need to hear it and they need to, they need to feel it and believe it as well. It can’t just be like, Yeah, I’m sorry, right?

Dr. Jon Dabach 22:16
Yeah, that’s in fact, those could be, those could be more damaging than not apologizing when someone’s flipping about it.

Kevin Anthony 22:22
Yeah because you don’t, you don’t believe it. It’s just like you’re blowing me off.

Dr. Jon Dabach 22:27
Totally.

Kevin Anthony 22:28
So let’s, let’s talk about what is the right time to apologize. Like we understand it’s important to apologize, but one thing I often see is people are not really sure, like, when the right time is, like, Should I do it right away in this moment? Should I wait till things cool down and do it later? Does it even matter or count if I wait until later? Like, what really is the right time?

Dr. Jon Dabach 22:53
There’s no, you know, there’s no perfect time to apologize. There are imperfect times to apologize. I mean, I think that there’s a pretty large window. So like, if someone says, Well, that happened six months ago, I can’t apologize for it. Now, I would say I’ve seen partners in my own practice apologize for something that happened 30 years ago, and it’s still being incredibly impactful. You know, I think the right time to apologize is when your partner is ready to actually hear it. So if you’re in the middle of a fight and their pulse is up and they can’t focus, and there they’re just seeing red and are angry, might not be the best time, right, but that might be the best time to just say, hey, we need to take a break, um, because there’s, there’s no real coming back from someone who’s on, like an adrenaline rush and fight or flight mode.

But you know, a good way to check if someone’s ready for an apology is if you ask, if you say, Hey, I would like to apologize for something. Don’t get too specific, right? I’d like to apologize for something. Are you do you have some time now to go over it? Are you open to hearing it? And you know, they’ll answer one of three ways, yes. In which case, screen line, no, then don’t continue. Or they’ll give you a flip and, well, depends. Or Yeah, I guess, in which case you have to kind of proceed with caution, you know, you could, if someone says, Well, of course, I want an apology. Like, well, obviously you’re but you’re not going to give me a good one, then you have to say, you know, like, because that, that could very well be the case, that you’ve just never been good at it before. You have to say, like, look, no, I really want to, I want to do this right, and I want to make sure that you hear me. Can you give me a real shot?

And if there’s quiet, if there’s a pause after you say something like that, then I would say, go for it, but if they keep attacking you, just say, it seems like you’re not really in a space where you want to talk calmly. And I respect that, and I understand I caused a lot of this tension. It’s not your fault, but maybe we’ll try again later. You know that? Just learning to kind of read the room, a little bit easier said than done, if you don’t have that natural ability. But hopefully, those questions will get you a little bit closer.

Kevin Anthony 25:09
Would you say it’s better like so you’re trying to read the room, you’re trying to figure out if this is a good time? Would you say it’s better to sort of err on the side of giving the apology, rather than not or vice versa?

Dr. Jon Dabach 25:23
No, I think, I think, you know, people tend to apologize not enough, as opposed to over apologizing. There are exceptions, right? There are people who come to my practice, and especially you find it with people pleasers. So if you, if you’re a man or a woman who just rolls over backward and is constantly trying to please your partner. That gets annoying because what happens is you say yes all the time. You say sorry all the time, but it doesn’t, it doesn’t have a lot of follow-through. And then the next chance you get to disappoint them, you can. So if that’s the case, then yeah, they might say, Oh, they say sorry all the time. Doesn’t mean anything. That’s a whole different scenario.

But for anyone who’s not in that position, you should always strive to apologize. I mean, I remember, I was at an engagement party years ago, and the and the what the parents of the bride got up to give, or the bride to be got up to give, a little like toast, and the mom went on for like, 10 minutes about everything, this and that, and the dad had these. I mean, it shows you how powerful was. I still remember it. He said there are three things that you need to learn to say and say them often. You’re right. I’m wrong. I’m sorry. That’s what he’s like, that will solve 80% and he’s right. You know, it’s like sometimes people just need to remember, like just saying that often and not having to hold on to who’s right really does solve a lot of the nonsense in a relationship.

Kevin Anthony 26:55
Would you suggest that somebody do that, even if the other person technically isn’t right?

Dr. Jon Dabach 27:03
So no, I don’t think lying is a good strategy for apologizing. I think that that’s going to set you up for going back on your word. It’s going to set you up for the person saying, you know, but you said this, and you’re doing that, and so you don’t want to lie. But there’s, I mean, there’s usually room for you to apologize for something, but and I can, you know, I can go into details, even with some things in my own life, where my wife wanted me to apologize for something, where I felt I What, like I didn’t do anything wrong, and so I apologize for the way I approached it. But I even told her, if I had to do this all over again, I would still make this decision, you know. And sometimes you have to be comfortable in your relationship, accepting that you guys have different vantage points. And sometimes you have deal breakers, you know, like if, if you get to a deal breaker and the relationship has to end, sometimes that’s the right thing to do. But no, I don’t, I don’t think lying is ever a good idea.

Kevin Anthony 28:01
Good. I just wanted to make sure that was totally clear that the audience, the audience understood that, that the the advice dad was giving wasn’t just to always say, Well, you’re right, I was wrong, right? Like, that’s a disaster. Has to be legit, right? Exactly. You know, one of the ways that I have approached that in the past is, you know, to not necessarily apologize for the thing, if I’m, you know, very confident that I’m correct, but apologize for maybe how it landed on them, right? So, you know, I might say, you know, well, you know, I do believe that, you know, I made the right decision, but I recognize how it came across to you. Maybe I didn’t explain it properly, or maybe it didn’t land properly, or, you know, it you can even apologize for how it made you feel, even though it might have been the right thing, you know, you didn’t like the way it felt right. So there are ways that you can apologize for a situation without actually having to say, you know, I was wrong. Now, if you were wrong, you should own it, but, in some instances, you’re like, well, that that was technically the correct thing, right?

Dr. Jon Dabach 29:15
Sure. You have to be a little careful when you’re apologizing for something else, but because it can often, you know, if I’ll give you an example, there’s a chapter in the book called The non-apologies, and like, one of, one of the classic non-apologies is, I’m sorry if you felt that way, right? And it’s like, that’s really that. It’s a backhanded insult, where it’s like, I’m not the problem. You misinterpreted it. And that gets a little that gets a little tricky because it sounds like an apology. If your partner is not super articulate, they might say, well, I can’t get angry at them, because they’re technically saying sorry, and they’re not going to know. Like how to say that’s a non-apology, but you know, there’s, it’s, it’s almost better to kind of dive into the nitty gritty with your partner at that point, as opposed to saying, Well, you got offended, and I’m sorry you were offended, but that wasn’t my intention. What you’re really saying, in that sense, is you’re the problem, not me. And that’s like the opposite of what an apology is an apology by its very definition, has to accept some of the blame, if not all of the blame.

Kevin Anthony 30:29
Yeah, that’s great. I appreciate you adding some clarity to that because what I was trying to express was having an acknowledgment of how the other person is feeling based on a situation, right? So in other words, taking their feelings into account, rather than dismissing how they feel about something, that’s what I was trying to get across. But you’re right, if you’re not careful, it can actually come across as dismissing their feelings, right?

Dr. Jon Dabach 30:54
Yeah, and I think acknowledging and validating their feelings, your intention there is fantastic. Like, that’s huge. That’s kind of the biggest part of it. The way you do it has to be done with a lot of compassion, but that is the right goal. Yeah, you want to make the person feel heard, for sure.

Kevin Anthony 31:12
Okay, we’re about halfway through. I got to take a quick break and I have a lot more things that I want to talk to you about. Well, one of which we’ve, we’ve kind of hit on in little bits and pieces, but before this episode is over, we absolutely have to give people a framework for how to create a good apology. So definitely want to make sure we get to that. We also have, I want to talk a little bit about conflict too. Something we talked about in the pre-interview call, was this idea of before, during, and after, right? And so we definitely want to hit those points. So right after this break, we will get to those things and a few more.

Are you a couple? Are your relationship and sex life where you want them to be? Are there changes you would like to make, but just don’t know how maybe you think there is nothing that can be done if you are not 100% happy with where your relationship or sex life is, then get help today and change your life. Go to https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/sex-coaching-couples/. Don’t worry about the long link. It’s in the description, all you have to do is click on it and schedule a strategy call with me today so we can map out strategies to get you where you want to be so you can have it all your way. That is https://www.kevinanthonycoaching.com/sex-coaching-couples/ and book your strategy call today.

Okay, so let’s go to conflict. So you talk about, there’s a before, a during, and an after. What exactly do you mean by that?

Dr. Jon Dabach 32:43
We all have kind of triggers in our relationship. We all have differences with our partners, and they cause problems in the way we deal with family, finances, sex, parenting, and social circles. There are going to be differences, and so those differences often will create conflict. If you’ve been in a relationship long enough to have a fight. So you know, for some people, that’s two dates. For some people, it’s six months, but, you know, eventually, we all get there, chances are you’re gonna know where you guys tend to fight, right? I could, I could. I could tell you the two places my wife and I always fight about, and then the one that kind of sneaks in once in a while, and that’s it like after, after being together for 15 plus years now, those are the only things we really argue about.

And so if there’s a problem in one of those arenas and I want to bring it up because I want to make a slight change, or I’m looking for an apology, or I need to apology, or whatever it is, or there’s something that’s coming up that I want to see happen a certain way before you bring it up, having The right mindset on how to bring up a potential fight is crucial. So in the gambling world, they have something called a soft startup, and they did some really interesting empirical kind of research and evidence-based, you know, practices here, that that kind of informed the best way to bring up touchy subjects. And it’s all about kind of lowering someone’s defensive shield and the way you do it, it’s worth looking up to. Again, it’s called a soft startup. They have worksheets. You can look it up online. It’s probably going to go way over the kind of the context of this podcast, but it’s worth looking into.

But you know, everybody, if you’re bringing up a naturally touchy subject, the person is going to feel like it’s an attacker, criticism. And so you have to use language, and you have to use perspective that lets them know you’re not trying to attack. You’re trying to solve a problem that’s affecting both of you. You’re a team. And so the way you present the converse. So it doesn’t become a fight. That’s the before, how you bring it up the during is if you find yourself in the middle of a fight. You know, conflicts often escalate and escalate quickly, very quickly. So you could be talking and someone could say, what? And even just the way they say, what will get you to go, oh, here we go again, you know? And then say, you find yourself off to the races. And the research has shown that the way a fight starts within two minutes, basically, that’s the way the conversation goes the whole time. So if you start fighting, which is why they call the before the soft startup technique, if you start fighting, I don’t care if you’re fighting for 10 minutes or you’re one of those couples that fight for four hours and stay up till two in the morning. The way it starts is typically the way it continues for the whole length of the argument until someone says, I don’t want to talk about this anymore, and they walk away.

And that’s when the stonewalling resentment part of it kind of kind of creeps in, and one person has to kind of realize I still want to be in the relationship. How are we going to patch this up? Do we just ignore it? Do I apologize? Do they apologize? Etc. So what you do during conflict is, you know, the most important thing I could tell people is to learn to take a time out, right? If you if you guys are heated, just say, hey, let’s take a break for 20 minutes and and really figure out if we can kind of get back on the track. When they did their love lab, the Gottmans like actually had to lie to the test subjects in order to get them to stop fighting. They couldn’t in 40 years of research or 50 now, they could not figure out how to get people to stop fighting in the middle of a fight. They just did. None of the tools worked. So what they would do is they’re looking through this one-way mirror. They would come into the room and lie to the couple and say, hey, our equipment’s broken on monitoring you, whether it was like an EKG or a video camera, whatever it was, would you mind taking a break on the fight and just let us get our equipment back in order.

And they would go back to their side of the mirror and just watch the heart rate on the EKGs, and just wait till it normalized again for that subject. And once it was normal, usually, you know, between 15 minutes and a half hour, they’d lie again. They’d go back to the subjects and say, hey, the equipment’s working again. Go ahead and continue the fight. And that was the only thing that the only thing that worked. And so they’re like, oh, okay, I guess the answer is to take a break. And they call that being flooded, right? So if your heart rate’s too high, a different part of your brain’s being activated, and you need to learn to take breaks. I mean, they’ve done MRIs, a different part of the brain lights up when you’re in fight or flight mode, and you don’t have the same ability to be compassionate and be part of a team, you kind of get into this, like every man for himself mode, and it’s very dangerous. That’s the during, right? That’s the during part.

Kevin Anthony 37:59
Yeah, I completely agree. I’m a huge fan of the break. Like, okay, we got to take a break. We got to we got to pause for a moment here because sometimes that’s really the only thing that will actually work.

Dr. Jon Dabach 38:14
Yeah, yeah, I’ve tried things in session that sometimes work. Usually, I mean, the most impactful one is asking one of the two partners to step out of the room, or, if they’re on a Zoom, to, like, take a walk around the block. So at least I get one of them to continue processing. But that’s a version of a break. Sometimes I’ll redirect and say, Hey, we’re going to change gears completely. And I even have note cards in my desk handy, and I will, I will write cue cards, and literally, if they’re in the office, I will write like a prompt for them to start saying and continue, and hand it to them.

And it’s, it’s like a break, but it’s with some intervention there, where I could say, name three things you like about your partner, and then I can hand to them the other person you know, talk about, like your most happy moment with your and so it’s just a complete 180 even that takes time to calm them down. The reason I try to look for those things in session is that I, you know if people are seeing me for an hour if I have to take a 20 or 30-minute break. It’s such a waste of their time. So I’ve, I’ve had to learn different things. But if it’s just the two of you, the break is, is like the go-to that is the go-to technique.

Kevin Anthony 39:32
I call it the time out, you know, yeah, you got to take the time out. So we call it. But I really like your idea of I would classify your second strategy, like, in terms of neurolinguistic programming, we would call that a pattern interrupter, right, right? So what you’re creating is something to interrupt that pattern of fighting right and sort of redirect, which is, which is really cool. I think that’s a really great tool. Yeah, it

Dr. Jon Dabach 39:57
Yeah, it works for me. Came from, like, desperation. Conversation, like years ago, but, you know, and what I found is, you know, years later, couples who would come back for like, a little touch-up session or something like that, once in a while, if there was a loss in the family, they would often say, you know, sometimes when we’re in the middle of a fight, I see myself holding that note card saying, Okay, what like, what would I do if I had a note card in my hand. So there is some reprogramming, like, if you’re using the NLP language there, that does happen, and that’s great, you know, you learn how to self-talk in a different way, which is super useful.

Kevin Anthony 40:30
So we still have the after part, yeah. Let’s talk about that a little bit.

Dr. Jon Dabach 40:35
So the after, that’s the core of the apology. You know, it takes, it takes someone, kind of the Peacekeeper, to initiate rebuilding the bridge, to being a couple. Sometimes that’s the one who needs to apologize. Sometimes not. I have found that there’s, usually there’s one of the two partners takes that role on over 90% of the time. So usually there’s someone in a relationship that knows if we’re gonna start talking again, it’s on me. And sometimes they get burned out, you know, and they’re like, well, they can, you know, if they’re really upset about this, they can come to me. If that happens, you always wait longer because, like the other because it’s like, that person is just not used to kind of restarting things.

So it takes someone being courageous enough to initiate that rebuilding, and then the core of it is the apology. I mean, everybody wants a kind of a post-game wrap-up of what the heck just happened. It’s and so you have to, kind of like, retrace your steps. Why? Why did we get into the fire? Why are we so angry? How are we going to fix this? All of that is part of an apology, really, but that, you know, so the before technique that I recommend is the soft startup. The during technique is the time out, right, taking a break. Or, if you could do a pattern interrupter, you know, like a note card thing, you could try. It’s hard for two people to do that. It’s very, you know, it’s easier with a third party, but you can learn to do it. And then the after is the apology.

Those are kind of the three techniques, and that’s where conflict lives. It lives in your mind, in anxiety when you know it’s going to happen. It lives, you know, as a direct threat in the moment, and afterward, it lives as resentment, and sometimes even it can grow into hatred or contempt of one another, and so the apology is the way to fix that.

Kevin Anthony 42:30
I wanted to come back to one thing you shared before. It’s something that I talk about a lot, and I just think it’s so valuable, which is what you were talking about, okay, we’re a team here, and how can we work together as a team to resolve the issue? And I think if more couples saw themselves as a team working together, it would really, really reduce the number of conflicts that they have and make the ones they do have easier to solve. Because when we think about conflict, we’re thinking like two sides, right, right? And the idea in a couple is you’re supposed to be on the same side. Yeah, that doesn’t mean the same side always agrees, but the way you approach, how you solve the problem, if you realize you’re on the same side, it’s probably going to be different than if you think you’re on opposite sides.

Dr. Jon Dabach 43:19
Yeah, I think that’s the exact right attitude. I think, you know, it’s, it’s, are we a team? I think we both want this, or I really need this. Can you give it to me? If not, I either need to learn to accept it or get out of the relationship, you know. So there’s, there are very few things that are super black and white. A good example would be, you know, some people are okay with an open relationship. The vast majority of people are not right. And so if one person needs to have multiple partners very often, that’s a deal breaker, and you’re done. And so getting clarity on that’s great, but learning to know like, hey, is this something we can agree on? I want to know about the health of our relationship. Do you view monogamy this way, just as, like, a very kind of big example, and if they say, Yes, great. So let’s talk about why I felt that was a violation. And like, maybe you have a difference of opinion, but let’s get to the truth of what we both believe. That’s a better attitude, as opposed to you following someone on Instagram and I don’t like who you find. It’s like, what the like out of nowhere? What are you talking about? That approach just kind of doesn’t work ever.

Kevin Anthony 44:27
I agree. You know, I always look at the team thing. It’s like when, when you’re first dating, you’re sort of getting to know each other. You know, you don’t necessarily see each other as being on the same team, but there’s a certain point in that dating process where you make this commitment, like, this is the person that I’m going to be with, and I think that’s the moment when you have to say, this person’s now on my team, or I’m on their team, or we created a new team together, right? Like, there’s a certain point there in that process where it’s like if I’m going to choose. To continue to be with this person, I gotta let him in, into the inner workings of my team, right? And then start approaching the relationship as a team from that point forward.

Dr. Jon Dabach 45:10
Yeah, and sometimes you see people not take that mentality for decades, so they have this secret bank account, or they never tell their partner or what their family thinks of them, you know? And it’s like, sometimes unwinding those habits is really hard, but you’re right. The healthy relationships don’t have those. It’s it’s this complete transparency, like, you know, what I’m thinking, where I am, you have access to anything and everything you want, and vice versa. Those are the healthy, happy relationships that really exist.

Kevin Anthony 45:45
I totally agree. Okay, a couple more things here before we wrap up. We’ve got a few more minutes left. I’m curious this came up as well in the process of apologizing, this idea of empathy, and I’m wondering if you have some ideas on how couples can help cultivate empathy.

Dr. Jon Dabach 46:07
I mean, I think that’s kind of a good transition to how, like, what are the steps of apologizing? Because empathy is the first one. I you know, as if you take nothing else away from and you listen to this whole talk, and you take nothing else away, the one big message is apologizing. Is 80% listening, 20% talking. And so when you’re trying to build empathy, you’re trying to signal to your partner, that you understand the pain that they were in, that you cost that’s, that’s, that’s really an important point. You caused it, whether you intended to cause it or not. The bottom line is, if you weren’t around, that pain wouldn’t be there. It’s much like a rental car, right? Like, you know, the rental car, whether if you’re parked on the street and somebody hits your car, you’re still responsible for it, and let’s take insurance out of the picture.

But their attitude is, well, if it was in our warehouse, right, it wouldn’t have gotten hit on that side of the street. So whether you’re part of it or not, there’s still some onus, some ownership of that responsibility, of that pain, that suffering, and so very often, someone will want to feel that you understand the pain as an insurance policy to make sure it doesn’t happen again. One of the dangerous, toxic ways someone will do this without an apology is by inflicting the same pain on you as revenge, right? So if someone cheats on me, I have to cheat on you to even up the score. Very often, you’ll hear the partner say, Well, I can’t say anything because I did it to them, but really, that creates a lot of break and damage in the relationship.

But it doesn’t have to be something even that extreme. It could be something as small as you know, they were supposed to do the dishes, and they didn’t, and they didn’t apologize, so now I’m not going to do their laundry, right, and then it’s just like this snowballing effect of people kind of taking it out on each other, when really what they’re trying to say is, you heard me, and I need you to see how much that hurt so that you don’t do it again. But instead of talking about it, they have this weird, passive, aggressive way of, kind of just making things worth worse for both of them. So if you’re able to convey through speech and through listening that you understand the pain that temptation to even up the score tends to go away in the in the in the majority of cases. And so how do you, how do you actually do that? And this is the first step of apologizing. Is you sit down and you say, you know, I want to apologize. Make sure the person is open to it. And then you say, This is what I think happened. How did, how did it make you feel? Tell me everything.

And they and you let them talk. You do not interrupt, right? If someone says, let’s say I broke my wife’s favorite coffee mug, right? And I think it’s like a small thing, I still want to know everything that’s going through her head, because the truth is, you don’t know. You don’t know what’s going through the person’s head. So you let them talk. My wife might say that was my favorite coffee mug. You have no idea. I go to, like, from store to store, I always look for coffee mugs. They’re usually eight ounces or 12. This 116’s but it’s not too big to fit in the cabinet, and so it’s that perfect size. And like, I like it was, and they and they don’t make it anymore. I’ve called the manufacturer to get a backup, and it’s just not made anymore. The only way to get that mug again is for me to go to a clay oven and make the damn bug myself, and I don’t know how to use the clay, and so now you’re hearing more information than you had no idea about. It’s like, oh my god, she’s put so much effort into it. So when I broke the coffee mug, it wasn’t just breaking a coffee mug, it was undoing one year of research on coffee mugs that she was and there’s no way to fix it, right? Right? And so you’re sitting there listening to all this, and you just listen. And so that’s step one.

Kevin Anthony 50:07
Before we go to step two, that was absolutely huge. What you just said, it needs to be repeated, which is the fact that when somebody gets really angry at us for something, a lot of the time, we do not understand the real reason why we only see the surface right, and we probably have our own assumptions that we’ve put in there, but that description you gave of all the actual reasons why break because, you know, like guys, a lot of times, we tend to be a little bit overly simplistic. And we’d be like, this is a coffee mug. I buy another one, right, right, without realizing all of the details that are there underneath the surface. And it’s so much easier for you to have empathy for somebody once you understand those details. So this is something I see in my work all the time. Is when you can get somebody to understand the details underneath it, and suddenly they go, Oh, I had no idea how important that coffee cup was for you.

Dr. Jon Dabach 51:08
I think that’s, I think you summarized something I was kind of talking around really well. Is like you want to, you want them to understand the details. You want them to understand the nuance as to why it hurts so much, and so kind of the more interesting and the most surprising part of this empathy comes from the next step, right, which is you, you listen, listen, listen, and you wait for that pause in the conversation after my wife gets that, does that whole thing on the coffee mug. I say, wow, is there anything else, and you give them space. Lo and behold, my wife might say something like, Well, I wasn’t going to bring it up, but now that you mention it, the day I bought that mug was the day that my grandmother found out that she had cancer. And like, I’ve always associated that mug also with my grandmother, and I’ve been missing her a lot lately, because it was her birthday the other week, and I’ve just been in a really bad mood.

And yes, you know, I probably overreacted, but I, you know, like, but you like, it seems like you just don’t even care about my family. We never even see them, and so now you’ve opened up the gates. So what? What just happened in that conversation, was the person kind of gave you a test balloon, like a little weather balloon. Can I really share what’s on my mind and not get criticized, not get judged, and have the person help me with these feelings that I’ve been carrying around? And if you’re able to hold that space, if you’re able to say, Yes, I’m the person who can do it for you, oftentimes, much more comes out. And if you’re not ready for it, it might get overwhelming, like, I mean, we went from talking about a coffee cup to her dead grandmother, and so it’s like, oh no. Like, what did I do? But that’s good. That’s the relationship you should have, that you should want to have, is this kind of open forum, and the fact that you have been there and been still and able to listen will give them confidence that they don’t have to hold things. And so you’ll have to apologize less because as soon as something happens, they’ll tell you right away in the future. So that’s step two, is asking, is there anything else? And that’s a big, big part of it.

Kevin Anthony 53:13
It is a big part of it. You know, what’s really interesting about that too, is a lot of times you can get stuck in this back and forth. This is a sort of arguing process, because in your mind, you’re like, it’s a freaking teacup, like, I’ll go commission somebody to make you another one. I’ll give them pictures, right? You know they’ll make you won’t even know it’s not the same one that you had. You know, like, as guys will come up with solutions like that. But is there anything else that lets you know that it’s not really about, it’s not really about.

Dr. Jon Dabach 53:44
And I slid something in that, is there anything else in her answer, which is, and I overreacted, right? So oftentimes, when you give someone space, there will be some admission that they’re out of line a little bit, not always, but oftentimes, if you give somebody that kind of patience, they’ll half apologize, or at least acknowledge their role in it. And if you’re listening for it carefully, that might be soothing to you, because you might not be the best apologizer to begin with.

Kevin Anthony 54:11
Yeah, absolutely. So that leads us to the next step. Then, so

Dr. Jon Dabach 54:15
Then, so the next step, I mean, you keep saying, Is there anything else? When the person says, No, that’s everything you if you’re a good body language kind of spotter, you’ll see a weight lifted off of them because now they’ve got it all on the table, which is really helpful at that point. The next step is to repeat everything in summary, so that they know you actually were listening and got it. So in this case, it’d be like I had no idea how much time and effort you put into getting the perfect coffee cup. Clearly, you spent so much time, and you even called the manufacturer, and they don’t even make it anymore. So what I broke is irreplaceable, and it also reminded you of your grandmother. You’ve been having a hard time, and I didn’t know. About that either and yada yada.

And then you ask, Am I understanding everything? And if the person says, yes, you’re gold, and then they might say, well, you’re missing this part. And when I do this with couples in session, very often, you will miss a piece of it. And so you say, Well, what am I missing? And you just kind of go and go and go until you get Yes, that’s everything. Yes, you’re getting everything. Those you want. Two yeses there. At that point you can apologize, an apology before you do that isn’t a full apology, right? But that like, that’s, that’s how you build empathy. You gave me time, you gave me patience, and you confirmed that you knew everything. And then you could say, Look, I’m so sorry that that happened. I had no idea it was a mistake. I didn’t do it intentionally. I hope you believe me when I say that. I know I can’t replace your coffee mug. I’d love to go out and shop for a new one with you if as any kind of consolation, and in the future, I’ll be, you know, much more careful with your things, and that’s it. And that usually the apology is the shortest part of it. It’s just, you know, but the listing could take a half hour, you know, and that’s and the repeating and making sure you get it, that’s key.

Kevin Anthony 56:13
Yeah, that’s huge. That’s such a funny example that you used to because my wife and I, in all the years we were together, we never really had an argument. We had like, three disagreements throughout that time, you know, that took a little bit of, you know, process, but we never really had an argument. But the reason why that example was was so funny is because I remember one time we were having a conversation, it wasn’t an argument or anything. I just, I tend to get, like, really passionate about stuff, and she had this little Japanese tea set with these little Japanese tea mugs, and we’re both holding one, and I’m, like, getting all animated, you know, it’s empty at this point because I finished drinking, but it’s still in my hand, and I’m like, you know, and this thing just flies out of my hand. I don’t even know how I’m just like, I don’t know how this, like, somehow just went flying out of my hand and, of course, breaks into multiple pieces on the floor. She was really not happy about that. So even though we weren’t having an argument, I still had to apologize for breaking one of her favorite Sure, which then I decided, since it was a Japanese tea set. Obviously, I need to find a way, aside from apologizing, to make this right for her. So, you know, the Japanese have this art of fixing broken pottery with gold, yeah? So, so I put her thing back together that way.

Dr. Jon Dabach 57:36
Wow, you really want the extra. That’s super cool, yeah?

Kevin Anthony 57:40
But it’s just so funny, as you’re telling that story, I’m like, oh, yeah, I’ve been there.

Dr. Jon Dabach 57:47
And it could get pretty granular. And, like, you know, she, you know, it’s like, you always do this. You’re so clumsy, you know, it can go in a million directions. So you have to really build the strength to realize you’re going to get kind of pooped on a little bit in this process but know that you’re still a good person, so you have to have confidence in who you are and be able to stand there and work through this. But that’s part of what’s interesting about it, for the person, is that they see, oh, they’re strong enough to sit here and, like, take the arrows and still love me. That says a lot.

Kevin Anthony 58:24
It does indeed. I was very fortunate in that situation that she was well aware of my tendencies to get animated, and so she wasn’t too bothered by it. She was a little sad that I broke it, but then she was happy when it was fixed and put back together, it had a little character to it very fun. Okay, we’re pretty much out of time, but, and by the way, sharing that formula was super, super valuable, so I’m really glad that you shared that. I did have a question that I want to ask, because I think it’s kind of important, and that is, what are some of the things you shouldn’t say in an apology?

Dr. Jon Dabach 59:08
But you have to understand my perspective. I think you’re overreacting, like any time you’re shifting blame back to the person, or you’re defending your actions, you’ve kind of gone on the wrong track. It’s natural for people to want to defend themselves and say, but it was an accident or you like, you should know that I never meant anything by that. You know the person already knows all that they would have left anybody who’s with someone and also thinking like they maliciously went out and to like wanted to hurt me, then they have their own psychological issues of CO dependency and stuff.

Well, let’s just assume that doesn’t exist, and you’re in the relationship, and the person is there because they love you, they want the apology because they want to rebuild the relationship. So if. You get on this kind of road of but you know, I did it because you did this first, or, you know, I’m, but you’re, you’re misinterpreting my actions. That’s that you’re, you’re already way far in left field. The truth is, after you apologize, if you have this like itch to explain your perspective, you can ask, and I’ve done this with my own wife. I would sit there, do the whole process, and then say, apologize. And she said, thank you. And I would say, Do you want to know what was going through my head and why I did it? And my wife will often say, not really. No, I’m happy, like I got my apology. I go, great, and you just let it go.

Kevin Anthony 1:00:39
Yes, yes, easier said than done for a lot of people. I was actually hanging out with two friends recently, and they got into a little bit of an argument. And what was really interesting about that is, in that process of arguing, they both actually made the points that they wanted to make. In other words, he was expressing what his intent was, and he actually was able to do that. He was actually able to express what his intent in that situation was, and she was actually able to express that she heard and understood what his intent was. So for all intents and purposes that should have been like, oh, okay, we’ve come to a resolution here.

And yet it was not resolved. And they just kept making, trying to make the same point over and over again. So I kind of came in and said, Okay, first to him, I said, she heard you. She understands that your intent was blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right? And then I had to go to her and go, Okay, you know he you heard that his intent, you get the point right is I had to literally pause them, time out, make sure that they actually heard it. And then here’s the, here’s the reason I bring this up is because it was the let go part where they failed, yeah, right, because they hurt each other. They made their points clear. They came to a resolution, but they couldn’t drop it. They couldn’t let it go.

Dr. Jon Dabach 1:02:08
Yeah? And I think the reason people have a hard time letting it go is because they think the person’s going to do it again. And so if they don’t see an expression of remorse, you know, like explaining why you do something is different than being full of regret, right? I mean, you could have a good reason. I could have a good reason for not showing up to dinner on time. It could be that I had a patient who was suicidal. It could be, you know, and, and all of that would be legitimate excuses, right? There’s I could. I could name off more, but I think you get the point, it doesn’t change the fact that I still have to sit there and look at my wife and say, I’m really very sorry, and it was something I couldn’t avoid. But I should have called, I should have done something to let you know what was going on, and that’s my fault, right? And suddenly it’s like, oh, even though it was a legitimate reason, you’re still taking responsibility, maybe suggesting ways to avoid it in the future. There’s remorse, clearly in the tone of your voice and in your body language, those are the things that let people let go.

Kevin Anthony 1:03:11
Yeah, and you know, you hit the nail right on the head in their situation. The reason why they couldn’t let it go is because this is a recurring pattern, and the fear, the fear was exactly what you said. You’re gonna do it again.

Dr. Jon Dabach 1:03:25
Yep, sad, yeah. We get in our own you know, we get in our own way most of the time. That’s the truth.

Kevin Anthony 1:03:32
That is really the truth. Well, John, I want to thank you for coming on. And before we go, I want to make sure that you have an opportunity to tell the listeners about your work, and where they can find you. If they’re interested in reading the book, which is everything we talked about and more in it, go ahead and tell them where they can find all that.

Dr. Jon Dabach 1:03:49
You can get the book anywhere books are sold, Barnes and Noble Amazon, wherever it’s called Your apology sucks. My wife and I wrote it. So only book with that title, I believe. So it shouldn’t be too hard to find. If you know if you want to follow me on Instagram, that might be helpful. I give tips like this a lot in little one-minute bursts on Facebook. My Instagram handle is John. Saves relationships with underscores between the words. If you want to work with me, I’m usually full. I don’t know if I have space, but if you want to try and reach out and work with me. My website, I used to be a rabbi, so it’s called Mr. Spirituality.com kind of a remnant from another life. You can find me there, but really, I just came on to share, you know, some advice, if it helps. And, you know, I’m sure Kevin’s great. So if you want to want to work with Kevin, he’s, he’s more than qualified to handle everything if I’m booked, but, but thank you for letting me be here and share some words.

Kevin Anthony 1:04:46
Well, thank you so much for coming on. And you know, I always love I don’t mind when people come on and they have the stuff to promote. That’s how we all do it, right? And it does actually even mean a little something else when somebody volunteers their time just because they will. And get the information out there to people. So I really do appreciate that.

Dr. Jon Dabach 1:05:03
Yeah, my pleasure. Thank you.

Kevin Anthony 1:05:06
All right, everybody that’s all the time that I have for this episode, and I will see you next week.

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